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Has anyone install a KB on there SHELBY GT. I have a 2.6 Big Bore polished at the shop and I trying to wait untill my number comes up at the mod shop and go for the paxton, but after seeing this clip from our local track, I think I may pull the trigger and have it installed.

 

http://videos.streetfire.net/video/c7c8ce4...9ea0023600d.htm

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Has anyone install a KB on there SHELBY GT. I have a 2.6 Big Bore polished at the shop and I trying to wait untill my number comes up at the mod shop and go for the paxton, but after seeing this clip from our local track, I think I may pull the trigger and have it installed.

 

http://videos.streetfire.net/video/c7c8ce4...9ea0023600d.htm

 

Hi Rick,

 

Do you know how the two cars match up in terms of rear end gear ratios and with transmissions (M or A)? Does anyone have a clip of a head to head with a Paxton car and a Whipple car? What I have put together from all the posts on the topic is that the Paxton would be expected to win in a 1/4 mile and the Whipple in an 1/8 mile, all things being equal. The KB polished unit, however, is not only a beautiful thing to look at, it appears to be the ticket if you want the absolute most horsepower out of our motors. Jim

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I wouldn't think the Paxton would outrun the Whipple even in a 1/4 mile, just given the rated HP difference (462 vs. 500), plus the low end torque with the Whipple. I'd think it would be hard to overcome the Whipple's hole shot.

 

 

When things don't make sense they probably aren't true :D Boost is Boost...

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I wouldn't think the Paxton would outrun the Whipple even in a 1/4 mile, just given the rated HP difference (462 vs. 500), plus the low end torque with the Whipple. I'd think it would be hard to overcome the Whipple's hole shot.

 

 

It would come down to driver and setup. IE tires, air pressure and suspension modifications. Louie has a paxton and is in the 11's. Not bad at all. ;)

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I wouldn't think the Paxton would outrun the Whipple even in a 1/4 mile, just given the rated HP difference (462 vs. 500), plus the low end torque with the Whipple. I'd think it would be hard to overcome the Whipple's hole shot.

 

 

It would come down to driver and setup. IE tires, air pressure and suspension modifications. Louie has a paxton and is in the 11's. Not bad at all. ;)

 

 

 

rossgt is correct..lots of other variables. We have run this keyboard race a few times already...I have a paxton, with full lngth headers/hi flo cats on top of the rest of goodies...538 hp and 497 ft lbs ( calc at crank)...I 'll take a 1/4 mile shot at any whipple...even with dot slicks, we will both be overpowered for the first 60 ft....last 1/8 will be mine with 1500 rpm over the whipple. be a real good race but I'll bring my wallet.

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rossgt is correct..lots of other variables. We have run this keyboard race a few times already...I have a paxton, with full lngth headers/hi flo cats on top of the rest of goodies...538 hp and 497 ft lbs ( calc at crank)...I 'll take a 1/4 mile shot at any whipple...even with dot slicks, we will both be overpowered for the first 60 ft....last 1/8 will be mine with 1500 rpm over the whipple. be a real good race but I'll bring my wallet.

 

 

Pretty impressive numbers coming out of that Paxton. Can anyone tell me what the Whipple would put out with similar mods ?

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rossgt is correct..lots of other variables. We have run this keyboard race a few times already...I have a paxton, with full lngth headers/hi flo cats on top of the rest of goodies...538 hp and 497 ft lbs ( calc at crank)...I 'll take a 1/4 mile shot at any whipple...even with dot slicks, we will both be overpowered for the first 60 ft....last 1/8 will be mine with 1500 rpm over the whipple. be a real good race but I'll bring my wallet.

 

 

You go Bob! A man who backs it up with dough! Right on! If you can find any takers this would be a cool race, I am a c-note on Bob. Besides white is faster!

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Pretty impressive numbers coming out of that Paxton. Can anyone tell me what the Whipple would put out with similar mods ?

 

 

 

LuLu knows the engineering way better than me, but generally boost is boost. at 9 or 10 lbs, same mods they both will end up about the same peaks, except the torque is higher/earlier in the whipple/kb.

 

I thought the larger 2.6 l KB volume might provide some additional low end edge, but Lulu or somebody said our 281 ci engines can't really use it. remember, these are really mouse motors in the real sense of V8 world. the whipple/kb got flat about 5000 rpm...the paxton screams to 6500. its a top end sprinter you can't believe.

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Hi Rick,

 

Do you know how the two cars match up in terms of rear end gear ratios and with transmissions (M or A)? Does anyone have a clip of a head to head with a Paxton car and a Whipple car? What I have put together from all the posts on the topic is that the Paxton would be expected to win in a 1/4 mile and the Whipple in an 1/8 mile, all things being equal. The KB polished unit, however, is not only a beautiful thing to look at, it appears to be the ticket if you want the absolute most horsepower out of our motors. Jim

 

 

Hi Jim, I do not know anything about these cars. I have a pm for one of those guys to let me know when they are coming back, when they do I will check them out

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Has anyone install a KB on there SHELBY GT. I have a 2.6 Big Bore polished at the shop and I trying to wait untill my number comes up at the mod shop and go for the paxton, but after seeing this clip from our local track, I think I may pull the trigger and have it installed.

 

http://videos.streetfire.net/video/c7c8ce4...9ea0023600d.htm

 

Just my opinion, but the KB unit is the way to go if you don't care about having an authentic Shelby GT/SC. If you plan to do the install yourself, then neither a FRPP whipple or Paxton/Shelby snail set-up will be recognized as a GT/SC, so go for the KB!

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I initially was going to go KB but I didn't like their installation nearly as well as the whipple. When I was looking their setup had you runing the intake hose out through the core support which looked quite lame to me and required cutting on the core support.

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rossgt is correct..lots of other variables. We have run this keyboard race a few times already...I have a paxton, with full lngth headers/hi flo cats on top of the rest of goodies...538 hp and 497 ft lbs ( calc at crank)...I 'll take a 1/4 mile shot at any whipple...even with dot slicks, we will both be overpowered for the first 60 ft....last 1/8 will be mine with 1500 rpm over the whipple. be a real good race but I'll bring my wallet.

 

 

There seems to be a misconception herre, the Whipple doesn't sign off at 5k lol It just quits making more boost but thats ok because its making as much as the 4.6 can handle by 3k.

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I initially was going to go KB but I didn't like their installation nearly as well as the whipple. When I was looking their setup had you runing the intake hose out through the core support which looked quite lame to me and required cutting on the core support.

 

 

 

I agree with Wado..( thougth it is a matter of opinion). There is another aspect to consider here. I may be wrong , but I seem to recall the KB unit is running a measured peak 11 lbs of boost, while the whipple is about 9-10. . I had a boost gauge ( and fuel pressure) mounted under the hood for my dyno pulls..absolute peak was 9.5 lbs. (sai paxton). As said by others and me boost is boost...dial any of these units up to higher boost levels, you will get higher output ( for a while)

 

Most of the "experts" (who ever they are) and forum writings seem to agree that at anything over 10 lbs you are on borrowed time, waiting for that moment of detonation/loss of fuel pressure etc that will blow right thru the top of a stock lightweight alum piston.

 

I think its Brenspeed has a photo section on "Carnage" of boosted/blown/broken/busted heads, cranks, rods, pistons etc that are the results of a "leetle tooooooo much". I say this not to discourage one choice over another....I have taken the "higher boost" road and have pictures/carnage etc like Brenspeed to prove it. Its a riskier path and expensive lesson that all comes out of the owners pockets...no warranty work here....trust me on this point.

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LuLu knows the engineering way better than me, but generally boost is boost. at 9 or 10 lbs, same mods they both will end up about the same peaks, except the torque is higher/earlier in the whipple/kb.

 

I thought the larger 2.6 l KB volume might provide some additional low end edge, but Lulu or somebody said our 281 ci engines can't really use it. remember, these are really mouse motors in the real sense of V8 world. the whipple/kb got flat about 5000 rpm...the paxton screams to 6500. its a top end sprinter you can't believe.

 

I don't mean to dash anyone's dreams here. I may have said it, I don't recall. But it is technology and engineering "common sense" that 281 CIDs can process only so much air. IMHO, the 2.8L KB is too much air.

 

The 4.6L does not perform all that well under 2500 RPMs because the design is almost square, 3.55 bore, 3.54 stroke. It's further limited by powdered metal rods, hypereutectic pistons, cast crank, aluminum block and heads, hollow camshafts, ect. Don't hear me wrong, it's very durable in it's stock form, but only to about 450 RWHP*. After that, things go snap.

 

EDIT: * I've corrected this text. I meant to say that the bare 4.6L block is good for building up to about 600 RWHP. A stock 4.6L-3V "off the shelf" stock engine as we have in our SGTs should handle 450 RWHP rather well. Sorry for any confusion.

 

The 2.8L KB PD blower is way too much supercharger for our stock SGT engines. Yes, you will make awesome power out of the gates, but if you continue to beat on it on a regular basis, things will come apart a lot sooner than most expect. The #1 cause for failure is "jumping off the throttle" after a power run, rather than backing out of the power and bringing it down easy (think glide). Every 4.6L I've seen go south, (including mine) went south in the traps from jumping off the throttle. The stock rods stretch from what I call "oil pan undertoe", and it's over. The #2 cause is detonation from running lean, or, bad gas. This destroys the piston top and eventually you lose your compression ring. The piston will "rattle" in the bore and tear up the skirts and cylinder wall. A slow death.

 

The Paxton/Shelby kit is built around the Novi 1200 CFM centrifugal blower. Like the 4.6L-3V, it too has a power curve that is very well matched to the engine. A tad slower out of the gates (which is the rationale for 4:10 gears and 3500 stall converter if you're auto), but it keeps on pulling through 6500 RPM, the upper limit of the 4.6L-3V. It make it's best power after the 330' mark and can easily walk away from a PD blower of similar size.

 

Ask yourself this...Why does the 725 HP mod motor come without a warranty?

 

Need anymore hints?

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I don't mean to dash anyone's dreams here. I may have said it, I don't recall. But it is technology and engineering "common sense" that 281 CIDs can process only so much air. IMHO, the 2.8L KB is too much air.

 

The 4.6L does not perform all that well under 2500 RPMs because the design is almost square, 3.55 bore, 3.54 stroke. It's further limited by powdered metal rods, hypereutectic pistons, cast crank, aluminum block and heads, hollow camshafts, ect. Don't hear me wrong, it's very durable in it's stock form, but only to about 600 HP. After that, things go snap.

 

The 2.8L KB PD blower is way too much supercharger for our stock SGT engines. Yes, you will make awesome power out of the gates, but if you continue to beat on it on a regular basis, things will come apart a lot sooner than most expect. The #1 cause for failure is "jumping off the throttle" after a power run, rather than backing out of the power and bringing it down easy (think glide). Every 4.6L I've seen go south, (including mine) went south in the traps from jumping off the throttle. The stock rods stretch from what I call "oil pan undertoe", and it's over. The #2 cause is detonation from running lean, or, bad gas. This destroys the piston top and eventually you lose your compression ring. The piston will "rattle" in the bore and tear up the skirts and cylinder wall. A slow death.

 

The Paxton/Shelby kit is built around the Novi 1200 CFM centrifugal blower. Like the 4.6L-3V, it too has a power curve that is very well matched to the engine. A tad slower out of the gates (which is the rationale for 4:10 gears and 3500 stall converter if you're auto), but it keeps on pulling through 6500 RPM, the upper limit of the 4.6L-3V. It make it's best power after the 330' mark and can easily walk away from a PD blower of similar size.

 

Ask yourself this...Why does the 725 HP mod motor come without a warranty?

 

Need anymore hints?

 

 

Not to start a pissing match but how do you figure the centrifigul is better at 330' if my Whipple is making 10psi at 330' which it should be and the centrifigul is limited to 10psi as well. The only difference becomes one of efficiency in makng the boost. I believe the Whipple is one of the most efficient methods out there. interested in your thoughts?

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Not to start a pissing match...

Then, let's not. They get so boring and often wind up pizzing others off.

 

For the record, I'm not "pro" or "con" any particular design. All of them have their plus and minus areas to learn about. I'd just hate to see some hard working dude throw a 2.90 pulley on something and break.

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Just got off the phone with the boys at Whipple they say guys seem to be running as much as 12psi relatively safe. They think there is a great deal of safety built in to the HO kit and a ton of engineering was done with ford to ensure safety of the motor. They also said that the idea their blowers quit making boost at 5k is very much mistaken. The Whipple comes up to 10psi by about 2400rpm and maintains that through out the rev range.

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Like I have said here before, I'm not an engineer. I don't build race cars for a living, it's my hobby.

 

Actually, I'm a cop with 30 plus years of service, and a better cop than I am a racer car builder/driver. But, in either case, I know how to go fast and what quick means. Unless some of y'all are "undercover" LEOs here too, nothing teaches you more about speed and decision, than a CV/PI headed down any side street at 100 MPH chasing after a few stick-up "dudes" who just want to kill you. Nevermind...

 

Boost reported by an aftermarket gauge doesn't tell the truth, it's not accurate. Close, but not close enough to be of any real tuning value. Besides, if you are into the throttle, you should be looking elsewhere and not at any gauge unless you are parked on a dyno. Even then, "gauges" are innaccurate. There is no wind resistance to fight against.

 

OBDII MAP data reported to the EEC by engine sensors is not only concrete data, it is data that serves to direct additional EEC commands which change fuel, spark and timing instantly. You want to know what's really going on, watch your MAP numbers with a real time OBDII reader. ScanGauge, SCT LiveWire, DiabloSport, whichever you prefer. What do you think professional tuners are watching? A dash gauge?

 

My original statement on PD/TS superchargers said that after 5000-5500 RPM, the boost delivered is ineffective to performance. I said "things that rotate can turn only so fast before their effectiveness goes flat" as I recall it. This does not mean they cost you power. It means they are not delivering any more power, and there is a difference.

 

You will have boost, yes. But 10 PSI won't mean much in terms of power over 5500 RPMs. HP does not move the car, torque does that. And, when torque starts to drop off, so will your speed. Dyno reports show it, so do timeslips. Second 1/8th mile MPH increases tell the truth. Centrifugals outrun PD/TS blowers every time and this is the speed that wins races.

 

There is no one premier blower, no one style of supercharging superior to all. No sense going there, it's an endless argument.

 

IMHO, do your homework. Buy the blower you feel fits the style of driving you enjoy. If this happens to be at stoplights on your local boulevard, or, 1/8 mile drag racing, a PD/TS blower will get the job done every time, and very nicely done too. If you prefer longer seat/race time, such as autocross and road racing, or, 1/4 mile drags, consider the benefits of a well tuned centrifugal.

 

Due to it's base design, the 4.6L-2/3/4V is inherrently weak in torque under 2500 RPM, I have explained that ^ there. Once past 2500 RPM, (approximately 330' at a drag strip), it's an awesome engine that can breath beyond your imagination up to it's redline, 6500 RPM. Thus, (and IMHO) you need to feed it power through 6500 RPM, for the "full Monty".

 

BTW, if I put 12 PSI of boost on a stock 4.6L-3V, I'd also put a Mason jar on my dresser and start throwing my pocket change in there at the end of my day. There will be a time when those coins will be spent on a fresh short block.

 

Winning is not about which blower is under the hood, there is a lot more to it. The whole car needs to be tuned to the task and driven by brains, not balls. Anyone can go fast, only a few get there quicker.

 

I'm not into internet arguments, no one ever wins. I just want to share my thoughts, and let them help who they help.

 

Y'all be safe, and happy motoring!

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Like I have said here before, I'm not an engineer. I don't build race cars for a living, it's my hobby.

 

Actually, I'm a cop with 30 plus years of service, and a better cop than I am a racer car builder/driver. But, in either case, I know how to go fast and what quick means. Unless some of y'all are "undercover" LEOs here too, nothing teaches you more about speed and decision, than a CV/PI headed down any side street at 100 MPH chasing after a few stick-up "dudes" who just want to kill you. Nevermind...

 

Boost reported by an aftermarket gauge doesn't tell the truth, it's not accurate. Close, but not close enough to be of any real tuning value. Besides, if you are into the throttle, you should be looking elsewhere and not at any gauge unless you are parked on a dyno. Even then, "gauges" are innaccurate. There is no wind resistance to fight against.

 

OBDII MAP data reported to the EEC by engine sensors is not only concrete data, it is data that serves to direct additional EEC commands which change fuel, spark and timing instantly. You want to know what's really going on, watch your MAP numbers with a real time OBDII reader. ScanGauge, SCT LiveWire, DiabloSport, whichever you prefer. What do you think professional tuners are watching? A dash gauge?

 

My original statement on PD/TS superchargers said that after 5000-5500 RPM, the boost delivered is ineffective to performance. I said "things that rotate can turn only so fast before their effectiveness goes flat" as I recall it. This does not mean they cost you power. It means they are not delivering any more power, and there is a difference.

 

You will have boost, yes. But 10 PSI won't mean much in terms of power over 5500 RPMs. HP does not move the car, torque does that. And, when torque starts to drop off, so will your speed. Dyno reports show it, so do timeslips. Second 1/8th mile MPH increases tell the truth. Centrifugals outrun PD/TS blowers every time and this is the speed that wins races.

 

There is no one premier blower, no one style of supercharging superior to all. No sense going there, it's an endless argument.

 

IMHO, do your homework. Buy the blower you feel fits the style of driving you enjoy. If this happens to be at stoplights on your local boulevard, or, 1/8 mile drag racing, a PD/TS blower will get the job done every time, and very nicely done too. If you prefer longer seat/race time, such as autocross and road racing, or, 1/4 mile drags, consider the benefits of a well tuned centrifugal.

 

Due to it's base design, the 4.6L-2/3/4V is inherrently weak in torque under 2500 RPM, I have explained that ^ there. Once past 2500 RPM, (approximately 330' at a drag strip), it's an awesome engine that can breath beyond your imagination up to it's redline, 6500 RPM. Thus, (and IMHO) you need to feed it power through 6500 RPM, for the "full Monty".

 

BTW, if I put 12 PSI of boost on a stock 4.6L-3V, I'd also put a Mason jar on my dresser and start throwing my pocket change in there at the end of my day. There will be a time when those coins will be spent on a fresh short block.

 

Winning is not about which blower is under the hood, there is a lot more to it. The whole car needs to be tuned to the task and driven by brains, not balls. Anyone can go fast, only a few get there quicker.

 

I'm not into internet arguments, no one ever wins. I just want to share my thoughts, and let them help who they help.

 

Y'all be safe, and happy motoring!

 

 

I'm used to going much faster then police do on the streets lol but my wife is a city seargent and I find running the speeds you guys do in town and traffic to be quite exilerating lol I try to follow your logic but I fail to see how maintaining max boost throughout most of the rev range can't be better then reaching the same point later in the rev range.

 

05Mustang_Dyno_Large.gif

 

I see steadily rising HP and Torque throughout the rev range. I've had both styles and I know what I like and I've nothing against one or the other. I do have some hearburn with people making statements like they're fact when its simply not true.

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I see steadily rising HP and Torque throughout the rev range.

 

 

Yep. Although the increase at 2500 is impressive, the biggest gain is actually up near redline (because the stock engine falls on it's face at 5000). If there's a Whipple or KB out there going flat at 5000, it has nothing to do with "things that rotate" not being able to turn fast enough. It's because somebody doesn't know how to tune.

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