S197 Boss Mustang On The Way

[95SVTCobraVA]

The orange BOSS looks great! I hope when they build one that it looks a lot like that one.

[newbossmustang]

Here is option two for our shinoda boss cars and with power from stock to 600 rwhp we offer a killer package

[BossMan]

Hoping for a hemi h8tn big aluminum block bad a$$ Boss.

[BossMan]

I would seriously recomend going with a 4.6L or 5.4L turbocharged mustang. This car doesn't deserve the Boss name. These turbo cars would be cheaper and alot of fun. The Boss should be made for serious race enthusiasts only I think.

[BossMan]

I'm getting bummed out thinking about the wait. We need a big block.

[BossMan]

Looks like the Challenger is a go with a 6.1L Hemi (425HP) and a six shooter trany. Possibly Feb 07.

[PFA]

I read that there were plans for a 5.4 NA BOSS for 08-09. The Romeo plant has been awarded the BOSS engine also.

[SoftBatch]

I read that there were plans for a 5.4 NA BOSS for 08-09. The Romeo plant has been awarded the BOSS engine also.

 

 

If you read it can you post the source?

[C0braFan]

This is all a complete load of BS, fabricated to draw visitors to your forum and web site.

 

Motor Trend's paper is worth less than National Inquirer. They probably got the story from YOU!

 

The whole story is total BS. If you guys are so "KEEN" and "HOT" on the latest stories, where were you regarding the upcoming Shelby GT, which came out of NOWHERE?

 

 

New Boss. What total BS. This web site is a joke.

[crispy23c]

This is all a complete load of BS, fabricated to draw visitors to your forum and web site.

 

Motor Trend's paper is worth less than National Inquirer. They probably got the story from YOU!

 

The whole story is total BS. If you guys are so "KEEN" and "HOT" on the latest stories, where were you regarding the upcoming Shelby GT, which came out of NOWHERE?

New Boss. What total BS. This web site is a joke.

 

 

Errr, not everyone is in the loop for everything. I heard 5.4 390-400 HP range, lighter than the GT500 (I think 3650 + or - lbs. Are you going to shoot me too?

And by the way, the above information is not only on this website- but a few others- so I don't think we posted this for web traffic. Read the stuff and enjoy!

 

PS- there are also rumblings re: the hurricane motor for this. Completely unsubstantiated, but there you go!

[robertlane]

This is all a complete load of BS, fabricated to draw visitors to your forum and web site.

 

Motor Trend's paper is worth less than National Inquirer. They probably got the story from YOU!

 

The whole story is total BS. If you guys are so "KEEN" and "HOT" on the latest stories, where were you regarding the upcoming Shelby GT, which came out of NOWHERE?

New Boss. What total BS. This web site is a joke.

 

I don't know what Motor Trend had to say about the Boss, so I cannot comment about their article. On the other hand, our stuff came right from a member of Team Mustang - and it's on paper. We're not going to give the house away about it, especially since the Camaro and Challenger are on the way.

 

Is there a chance that a Boss will not get built in 2009? Of course, especially in todays market.

 

And the Shelby GT did come out of nowhere, really fast. The fact is though, we told someone on Team Mustang (who is reading this from his desk at Ford ) that we were aware of a white Shelby with gold stripes .... we thought it was the 2007 GT-H though. So your comment about coming out of (in capitals) "NOWHERE" is why NO ONE KNEW ABOUT IT!

 

Now if you took the time to learn about our history, you'd know that we are extemely accurate.

[JETSOLVER]

Nicely played Robert, thank you.

[MustangFanatic]

Nicely played Robert, thank you.

 

 

+2

[68fastback]

Here's the first article. Please feel free to offer any comments:

 

http://www.stangsunleashed.com/index.php?c...p2_articleid=22

 

 

Anyoe else having a problem when they click the above link... I get a message that my account doesn't have access to that

 

 

.

 

fourth forum down from the top:

 

http://www.stangsunleashed.com/forums/index.php?showforum=44

 

 

 

Hmmmm... and when I click on this one I get taken to the Sorry... page with this message: Sorry, the link that brought you to this page seems to be out of date or broken.

 

 

 

-------------

 

<edit: possibly the links are too old?>

 

.

[sn95pro]

Not so fast!! the 4.6 32valve version of the Boss project has been officially cancelled. possibly a 5.4 may come down the pike but the 400 HP naturally aspirated Boss version is dead. A blur shelbys, shelby GT, Mach1 and Bullitt has developed as far as selling strategy. A boss car may make the market even more blurry on what car to buy. the 4.6 Boss version had Ford GT heads, aluminum block and a new cast aluminum cross runner manifold with the throttle body spacer plenum coming up off the back of the intake very much like the 2001 Bullitt intakes. All parts were casted as 2008 which means it may have been slated for 2008 or 2009. either way, the 4.6 version is dead at Romeo for the Boss.

[robertlane]

Not so fast!! the 4.6 32valve version of the Boss project has been officially cancelled. possibly a 5.4 may come down the pike but the 400 HP naturally aspirated Boss version is dead. A blur shelbys, shelby GT, Mach1 and Bullitt has developed as far as selling strategy. A boss car may make the market even more blurry on what car to buy. the 4.6 Boss version had Ford GT heads, aluminum block and a new cast aluminum cross runner manifold with the throttle body spacer plenum coming up off the back of the intake very much like the 2001 Bullitt intakes. All parts were casted as 2008 which means it may have been slated for 2008 or 2009. either way, the 4.6 version is dead at Romeo for the Boss.

 

This is exactly what we are hearing on our end too. The next-generation Boss will be a 5.4 - there might even be a funky color coming back - can't say what yet though.

[C0braFan]

This is exactly what we are hearing on our end too. The next-generation Boss will be a 5.4 - there might even be a funky color coming back - can't say what yet though.

 

 

 

With Ford's arterial bleeding (what--$5b loss in just 3 months--I dunno what else you'd call it), it's a safe bet that nothing but fancy badging will be offered over the next few years, with FRPP Packs. Ford can't afford to make changes to the production line. The Bullitt badge is coming next year, and it's a safe bet the Mach1 badge will follow the year after.

[68fastback]

.

 

Doesn't all this essentially pave the way for the engine pieces necessary for a NA Boss?

 

I don't doubt the Romeo 4.6 Boss program is dead, but it would seem that a Boss in '07 '09 is an undeniable historical mandate. Maybe I'm naiive, but I'm still thinking the 4.6 program was just a way to develop the pieces in stealth. If NA-optimized cams for the FordGT heads and a suitable intake have been prototyped, it's inconceivable to me that it won't find itself into a Boss -- unless the 6.2L were much closer-in and a big-block alloy Boss were actually in-plan for '09 (all indications are later).

 

Certainly a Boss could be an alloy 5.4 (in this decade an iron block in a Boss would seem unthinkable -- Ford can't really be oblivious to that, I think) or 5.0, if a destroked 5.4 crank is in the parts pin somewhere. I have already seen shops offering their own 5.0 alloy modular (don't remember if by bore-magic or different crank), but the one I saw had 3/4" thick deck and beefed valley supports (can't remember where I saw it and I'm on a borrowed computer right now -- out in NV). Of course there's also the spray-bore approach, and siamesed liners, etc, but I agree we'd have heard if that tech was going mainline, so I'm discounting those possibilities for '07/8 '09/10.

 

Nevertheless, it would seem an alloy 5.4/5.0 with the 4.6 boss program NA FordGT heads and intake would make a darn sweet Boss in '07'09. Heck, I 'll make manufacturing easy for them: use only existing GT/ShGT/ShGT500 body/susp pieces and the above engine, the basic interior, a Boss330/302 emblem on each side and a simple (deoptable) stripe, and it's a winner in my book.

 

What am I missing that would possibly make that a production problem? And why would doing a Boss blur anything? It would be the first truly meaningfull production NA mod since the '01 Cobra! No Mustang enthusiast would be confused by that! <lol>

 

I may be rapidly assuming the minority opinion here (hope not ;-), but a Ford Motor Company that passes up the Boss op is unthinkably broken and I'm just not ready to believe that. Surely Ford can't think no one will notice or care -- HTT and Dan Davis are too smart for that. Mustang is making money, has mementum and needs to keep both.

 

Tape and paint potentially damages Mustang's recent success; real content will always expand/support it. Paint and tape is milking the cash cow, Jacques Nasser-style. Actual content expands mustang's market position and reinforces its vitality -- exactly what's needed, IMHO. Ford has stated on numerous occasions that they understand this and will not make such mistakes again -- or at least their words indicate that.

 

I guess we shall see.

 

 

<edit:> '07 '09 typos above...

[JETSOLVER]

 

Doesn't all this essentially pave the way for the engine pieces necessary for a NA Boss?

 

the Romeo 4.6 Boss program is dead, but it would seem that a Boss in '07 is an undeniable historical mandate. If NA-optimized cams for the FordGT heads and a suitable intake have been prototyped, it's inconceivable to me that it won't find itself into a Boss -- unless the 6.2L were much closer-in and a big-block alloy Boss were actually in-plan for '09 (all indications are later).

 

Certainly a Boss could be an alloy 5.4 (in this decade an iron block in a Boss would seem unthinkable -- Ford can't really be oblivious to that, I think) or 5.0, if a destroked 5.4 crank is in the parts pin somewhere. Of course there's also the spray-bore approach, and siamesed liners, etc, but I agree we'd have heard if that tech was going mainline, so I'm discounting those possibilities for '07/8.

 

Nevertheless, it would seem an alloy 5.4/5.0 with the 4.6 boss program NA FordGT heads and intake would make a darn sweet Boss in '07. Heck, I 'll make manufacturing easy for them: use only existing GT/ShGT/ShGT500 body/susp pieces and the above engine, the basic interior, a Boss330/302 emblem on each side and a simple (deoptable) stripe, and it's a winer in my book.

 

What am I missing that would possibly make that a production problem?

 

I guess we shall see.

 

 

 

 

What the hey, I'll throw in a few points for discussion.

 

I suspect that the competition has thrown a wrench into Fords planning. The haste with which Fords problems with the investors has built steam(PR problems) and the Challenger and Camaro acceptance as fact with retro style and in the case of D-C a ready to hand rear drive V8 chassis to work from, has left Ford a little caught out in product planning. Nothing new there. I really believe they intended to do a BOSS MACH program in the interm(B4 the 09 ne 10 restyle), but the uncalculated demand for the GT500(thats obvious in retrospect, as the game moved on after the fall 05 planning cycle) and the still strong market for the Stang GT with a stick(generally sales fall pretty hard after three years on a basic car) led them to believe that a sticker and tape job would have been enough to keep sales numbers good until the original restyle date of fall 08.

 

Now they see the Challenger as a hot rod only package(no V6, and with that a premium price out of the same market as for RETRO themed Ford Hi-perf Stangs) and GM's call to arms with a direct competitor(ragtop Camaro to be introduced at the Detroit show, making it a full up competitor to the Stang).

 

This led Ford back to the design stage in order to compete with the other offerings(IRS, weight, can Retro, sorry Heritage styling go one more gen., etc., and big bottom end pwoer from fairly large N/A engines.

 

 

And here is my other main thrust. If Ford was to do any more non sticker cars, and at the only accceptable number now being 400 horse or above, not least for marketing reasons, they are forced into building a version of the Mod on an existing small displacement, hi-rev combination and here is the key

 

IT HAS TO BE BUILT ON THE ROMEO NICHE LINE!!

 

The 3 valve engines with iron block are not built on the 6-bolt main engineering! They thus must compete for that (awsome, and superior!) valuable hand crafted build time and Ford are not going to crunch their dealer loving Shelby engine program. The demand is there for another 5 000 BOSS's or MACH's over a couple of years and I believe they cannot absorb that into the Niche line no how!

 

Now add to that the pressure placed on the GT500 program from demand and ask yourself, why would Ford cannabalize potential sales from at least one full year of GT500 and perhaps another, plus the potential sales to people who will not buy a GT500 at ADM prices but certainly might at MSRP. I don't want them to do these sorts of programs without doing them right!!

 

They have no current alloy 5.4 block, don't plan to use one for but one or two MY's anyway( how do they recover the engineering costs?) and they have strong enough sales numbers to BS their way through 08/09 with sticker jobs. The outside factors and what I believe to be manufacturing issues add up, and as much as I want to see it happen, I have to believe a business case is hard to make.

 

And we havn't even seen what reaction there might be to a Bullitt to compete with SHELBY(yes DIRECT COMPETITION for the new favorite son) on this body style, and they pushed THAT debut back as well.

 

I don't want to be so negative but the only ready to use part in Dan's plan I can think of right now is perhaps the 00 R 5.4 N/A cam set. Even that intake won't work. Perhaps some crash engineering from the Aussie FPV gang, but I doubt that. And lets not forget the crash(pulled forward) F-150 program that should rightfully consume most of Fords talent right now, as that HAS to be the class of the Fields(he he, thats his Rubicon), NO OTHER OPTION. Blow that critical program with the current competition and Ford dies.

 

Dan, you know how much I value your thoughts, what do you think?

[68fastback]

Rob, you make some excellent points. I'm especially concerned about your Romeo niche-line capacity comments.

 

Certainly capacity expansion is not undoable (witness GM vis-a-vis Camaro possibly trippling-or-more

LSx capacity demand). And certainly Ford, like any busness, would agree that investment for expanded revenue (no matter how tight money is) is a good thing. But Romeo being the limiter (if it is) certainly would lend credence to Ford being caught off guard. (and, of course, the business planning team is always the scape-goat in such cases since, if they were right and didn't push/escallate the need, they're considered just as 'wrong' as if they missed the need entirely -- far less likely but equally debilitating to the business [you can tell I've hiked that trail a few times in another life] ;-)

 

I'm not so sure, however, that the Boss would affect sales of GT500s though -- they're essentially separate market segments, both by price-point and [NA/SC] engine appeal. Nevertheless, if your point above is truly the kink in the rope (which boils down to essentially a business-planning induced timing problem -- i.e. caught off guard) then it matters not since either way they would contend for the same [Romeo] capacity, just not because of [market] audience.

 

However, the 4.6 Boss program could still be 'dead' and fully successful -- merely needing a 5.0 stroker. (Amazingly, I've noticed at least one aftermarket engine builder on the web offering beefy 5.0 alloy modular castings with 3/4" thick deck, bored, not stroked -- possibly suitable for racing but not production.)

 

So, I think your point on Romeo capacity (and expansion timing/plan or lack thereof) is absolutely key. And certainly, it has to be done right, though I do wonder why after so many years of the Romeo 'team-model' capacity could not be substantially expanded fairly rapidly. It would seem that such planning exercises would have had to occurred at least once over the past two years -- dunno.

 

Still, no Boss till much later is still sooo unthinkable.

 

 

.

[C0braFan]

Guys, these last two posts are the most intelligent trains of thought I've read in a very long time...so many people instantly resort to an emotional response without thinking it through as you have. Kudos on knowing the facts and making solid, intelligent predictions! I've been arguing against this happening ever since Motor Inquirier published that completely irresponsible "news flash" on the 5.0 alloy Boss. That instantly rubbed me wrong simply because of Ford's financial woes and the success of the Mustang (GT in particular). Follow the thinking of the bean counters, and you'll have a hard time making a solid case for a mildly stroked 4.6 just to give the car a "Boss 302" namebadge. Compound this with all the web sites out there declaring "The Boss is back!" which was totally irresponsible reporting.

 

 

I don't doubt the Romeo 4.6 Boss program is dead, but it would seem that a Boss in '07 is an undeniable historical mandate.

 

The 07 model line is already out there on the roads...except for the upcoming Shelby GT due out in Jan. Historically speaking, the Boss wouldn't be due out until 09 (following your thought above). Ford hired Shelby to build Mustang race cars for SCCA in 65, which resulted in the GT350R. 1967 was the first year SCCA inaugurated the Trans-Am circuit in response to the boom of pony cars. A requirement of Trans-Am is that the cars must have a rear seat, so the GT350R was out...Shelby used 67 notchbacks for Trans-Am. The brand-spanking new Camaro took the win in 67. Don't mean to be a history teacher...just thought this might be interesting to some.

 

Maybe I'm naiive, but I'm still thinking the 4.6 program was just a way to develop the pieces in stealth. If NA-optimized cams for the FordGT heads and a suitable intake have been prototyped, it's inconceivable to me that it won't find itself into a Boss -- unless the 6.2L were much closer-in and a big-block alloy Boss were actually in-plan for '09 (all indications are later).

 

Ford GT heads are way too expensive for a production Mustang. Shoot, the CNC ported Mustang GT heads are $2600 alone, so imagine the price of GT heads... But here's the real problem. The GT500 pushes probably 380 hp without the S/C, and it's MSRP is $43k. (Remember, as far as Ford is concerned, dealerships are their customers...not individuals...so MSRP is all they see). A similarly equipped Mustang GT Premium is 29k. Tack on $2500 for the California Special mod, and you have a 32k price for a specialty model. Let's assume the Bullitt will run about 32k next year. (When I call these "badge jobs" I'm exaggerating...let's assume a few body mods like the GT/CS).

 

Certainly a Boss could be an alloy 5.4 (in this decade an iron block in a Boss would seem unthinkable -- Ford can't really be oblivious to that, I think) or 5.0, if a destroked 5.4 crank is in the parts pin somewhere. I have already seen shops offering their own 5.0 alloy modular (don't remember if by bore-magic or different crank), but the one I saw had 3/4" thick deck and beefed valley supports (can't remember where I saw it and I'm on a borrowed computer right now -- out in NV). Of course there's also the spray-bore approach, and siamesed liners, etc, but I agree we'd have heard if that tech was going mainline, so I'm discounting those possibilities for '07/8.

 

Impossible. The "alloy" 5.4 is the Ford GT engine, which costs 15-20k. This is the only aluminum 5.4 Ford builds. The iron block 5.4 is used in the GT500 and also the Australian Boss 290 engine (370 hp), and both were based on the 2000 Cobra R.

 

What am I missing that would possibly make that a production problem? And why would doing a Boss blur anything? It would be the first truly meaningfull production NA mod since the '01 Cobra! No Mustang enthusiast would be confused by that! <lol>

 

But where's the market for one? Let's look at all the options today just through Ford dealers:

 

1. Mustang V6-245

2. Mustang GT V8-281

3. Mustang GT California Special V8-281

4. Mustang Shelby GT500 V8-331

5. Mustang Shelby GT V8-281

 

Now that's just through Ford. What about the aftermarket cars also sold by Ford dealers?

 

1. Roush Mustang Stage 1, 2, 3, 427R

2. Saleen Mustang S281, SC281

3. Foose Stallion Mustang V8-281

 

Tally them all up....there are 10 V8-based Mustangs alone to choose from. Where would the Boss fit in without hopelessly confusing the average consumer? (Hate to admit it, but we enthusiasts are not the biggest market). I don't believer there's room for another model in between the GT and GT500 (performance-wise). If the Shelby GT will run 35k, that's only 8k up to the GT500. Where would it be priced? IMHO, if the rumors of the 4.6 Boss are true, then it died as a result of the Shelby GT.

[68fastback]

Guys, these last two posts are the most intelligent trains of thought I've read in a very long time...so many people instantly resort to an emotional response without thinking it through as you have. Kudos on knowing the facts and making solid, intelligent predictions! I've been arguing against this happening ever since Motor Inquirier published that completely irresponsible "news flash" on the 5.0 alloy Boss. That instantly rubbed me wrong simply because of Ford's financial woes and the success of the Mustang (GT in particular). Follow the thinking of the bean counters, and you'll have a hard time making a solid case for a mildly stroked 4.6 just to give the car a "Boss 302" namebadge. Compound this with all the web sites out there declaring "The Boss is back!" which was totally irresponsible reporting.

 

 

The 07 model line is already out there on the roads...except for the upcoming Shelby GT due out in Jan. Historically speaking, the Boss wouldn't be due out until 09 (following your thought above). Ford hired Shelby to build Mustang race cars for SCCA in 65, which resulted in the GT350R. 1967 was the first year SCCA inaugurated the Trans-Am circuit in response to the boom of pony cars. A requirement of Trans-Am is that the cars must have a rear seat, so the GT350R was out...Shelby used 67 notchbacks for Trans-Am. The brand-spanking new Camaro took the win in 67. Don't mean to be a history teacher...just thought this might be interesting to some.

Ford GT heads are way too expensive for a production Mustang. Shoot, the CNC ported Mustang GT heads are $2600 alone, so imagine the price of GT heads... But here's the real problem. The GT500 pushes probably 380 hp without the S/C, and it's MSRP is $43k. (Remember, as far as Ford is concerned, dealerships are their customers...not individuals...so MSRP is all they see). A similarly equipped Mustang GT Premium is 29k. Tack on $2500 for the California Special mod, and you have a 32k price for a specialty model. Let's assume the Bullitt will run about 32k next year. (When I call these "badge jobs" I'm exaggerating...let's assume a few body mods like the GT/CS).

Impossible. The "alloy" 5.4 is the Ford GT engine, which costs 15-20k. This is the only aluminum 5.4 Ford builds. The iron block 5.4 is used in the GT500 and also the Australian Boss 290 engine (370 hp), and both were based on the 2000 Cobra R.

But where's the market for one? Let's look at all the options today just through Ford dealers:

 

1. Mustang V6-245

2. Mustang GT V8-281

3. Mustang GT California Special V8-281

4. Mustang Shelby GT500 V8-331

5. Mustang Shelby GT V8-281

 

Now that's just through Ford. What about the aftermarket cars also sold by Ford dealers?

 

1. Roush Mustang Stage 1, 2, 3, 427R

2. Saleen Mustang S281, SC281

3. Foose Stallion Mustang V8-281

 

Tally them all up....there are 10 V8-based Mustangs alone to choose from. Where would the Boss fit in without hopelessly confusing the average consumer? (Hate to admit it, but we enthusiasts are not the biggest market). I don't believer there's room for another model in between the GT and GT500 (performance-wise). If the Shelby GT will run 35k, that's only 8k up to the GT500. Where would it be priced? IMHO, if the rumors of the 4.6 Boss are true, then it died as a result of the Shelby GT.

 

Hey, CobraFan, some excellent thoughts and thanks for catching my 'brain farts' re Boss in '07 '09. I'll go back and correct the typos.

 

----------------

 

Re Boss 5.0 block... is it that you feel the 4.6 would have thermal/stress/other problems if stroked to 5.0/400HP? I'd certainly want mod bore, but understand the bore-spacing constraints, etc. It would make no sense to me for Ford to pump everyone up with 5.0 mod boy-racer, etc; feature heritage articles on the old trans-am racers, etc, with no plan to do a Boss -- it's just stupidity to do that and not lever the PR!

 

Yet, I also hear Rob and CobraFan's cogent arguments for why it's not likely. From a metalurgy p.o.v., is it a major undertaking to do the engineering and plant work for an alloy 5.0/5.4 version of the GT500 block by '09? If so, I'd appraciate that insight. '09 would still seem doable if the will is there. If not, then they've been blatently lying to us all along with statements that Mustang will be the performance leader, etc. (certainly such statements imply within-segment... and the GT500 is not in the NA/Boss segment for me).

 

The one thing I cannot agree with is the confusion argument. I guess I count V8 engines differently:

1) 5.4 s/c 331 (ShGT500) 500HP

2) 4.6 na 281 (GT,ShGT, etc) 300-335HP

 

There's an enormous and gaping hole in there to my mind: no hi-po/DOHC/serious NA motor! All the GT motor variants are basic production V8s and aren't even on the table for consideration as true hi-po engines (again, to my mind) -- no forged goodies, no DOHC heads, no nothing! Look, I'm not trying to rag on anyone who has a GT/variant -- they're certainly nice cars and a superb value and I'd be proud to own one -- if I never owned an NA Cobra. But I don't think the buying public would confuse the GT motor with a hi-po NA motor or one suitable for a Boss unless pumped to 400-425HP and Ford just isn't going to push the GT motor that tight to the engineering design point without the forged goodies, etc -- they'll let the individual owners do that with FRPP packs, etc.

 

That's precisely why the Saleens, Roushes, etc are plugging modelss in that grand-canyon-sized 175-200HP gap. Does Ford not realize that most Ford enthusiasts won't buy Saleen/Roush? Most want factory hi-po rides. The last DOHC NA motor was the '01 Cobra tho, admittedly, those heads are now 'flow-dated' <lol>. Still, why would I want a GT/variant motor to replace an '01 DOHC Cobra ...which also has IRS and better handling than the GT to boot! Can you imagine anyone jumping from their most recent DOHC IRS Cobras to a GT? Very unlikely! Sure there will be some, but no way is that a step-up to seduce buyers to jump.

 

No, the HP-gap is huge and if Ford doesn't fill it, they'll lose many, if not most, non-Ford-loyal sales to Camaro/Challenger, ...and the loyal will just will curse Ford as they wait. Is it that Ford just doesn't get that some will only accept a hi-po NA DOHC motor in their next 'stang given recent stang history? If so, who performed the lobotomy on HTT?!

 

Ok, let me be clear -- there is zero chance of Ford getting my money without such a motor in a curve-carver -- ZERO. And, yes, I'd be pleased to replace that again in '12 with a big block alloy NA version in a re-engineered curve-carver, but can't see any reason to go backwards to a 3V GT/variant live-axle mustang in the interim (except the chassis is nn% stiffer - whoop-de-do! <sarcasm intended for Ford only> ;-).

 

Let me be clear, if Ford doesn't have a serious NA/DOHC 400+HP motor in a Mustang for '09, they need brain surgery -- if not resuscitation! If HTT isn't betting his job on that right now, he's toast! My assumption is he's much smater than that; Ford will fix the gap; life will be good. If not, words cannot express my disappointment.

 

.

[C0braFan]

Re Boss 5.0 block... is it that you feel the 4.6 would have thermal/stress/other problems if stroked to 5.0/400HP? I'd certainly want mod bore, but understand the bore-spacing constraints, etc. It would make no sense to me for Ford to pump everyone up with 5.0 mod boy-racer, etc; feature heritage articles on the old trans-am racers, etc, with no plan to do a Boss -- it's just stupidity to do that and not lever the PR!

 

Those are some more great points, 68fastback. I don't feel there are any potential problems with the 4.6...it's a tough aluminum engine with tons of potential (weak link in the chain is the diff which can only handle < 450 hp). There are Pro Stock racers pushing 20-30 lbs of boost on the 4.6 without breaking it, and Kenne Belle sells a high-psi blower for it. The 281 is an amazing engine...easily more powerful than anything from the 60s. Take even the highly-vaunted Boss 429 or 428 CJ engines...they only made hp in the 370 range. You can hit that with CNC ported heads, new Comp cams, cold-air intake, exhaust, and a tune. These are all reasonably affordable options (altogether less than the cost of a S/C) for making upwards of 400 hp. If you want 400 hp, you can have it for about $3000.

 

That would be probably less expensive than any new model Ford comes out with. It's what I'm planning....I don't like supercharging. Shaving a little bit off the deck could bump the pistons up to 11:1 or so, which is usually what GM and Chrysler does. I don't know why Ford goes the S/C route instead of just building a higher-output engine. Ford US should take notes from Ford Australia and their Boss 290 engine. That's exactly what we need. (I called some Australian Ford dealers about it...and they can't export the engine over here unless you have a warranty repair...so you'd have to buy a FPV-whatever to get one).

 

That's precisely why the Saleens, Roushes, etc are plugging modelss in that grand-canyon-sized 175-200HP gap. Does Ford not realize that most Ford enthusiasts won't buy Saleen/Roush? Most want factory hi-po rides. The last DOHC NA motor was the '01 Cobra tho, admittedly, those heads are now 'flow-dated' <lol>. Still, why would I want a GT/variant motor to replace an '01 DOHC Cobra ...which also has IRS and better handling than the GT to boot! Can you imagine anyone jumping from their most recent DOHC IRS Cobras to a GT? Very unlikely! Sure there will be some, but no way is that a step-up to seduce buyers to jump.

 

Perhaps Ford sees all the enthusiasts upgrading their engines to fill the gap? Maybe they see the Shelby GT filling that gap. It seems to me that the GT500 was intended to be a Challenger/Camaro killer from the start. Also, from what I've read at the Shelby forums, Ford actually owns the GT350 name. A lot could happen by mid 2009 when the new style comes out ('10 model line). I would bet real money that Ford is holding off until then to offer the new 5.4 or 6.2 as standard on the Mustang, with displacement on demand.

 

 

Let me be clear, if Ford doesn't have a serious NA/DOHC 400+HP motor in a Mustang for '09, they need brain surgery -- if not resuscitation! If HTT isn't betting his job on that right now, he's toast! My assumption is he's much smater than that; Ford will fix the gap; life will be good. If not, words cannot express my disappointment.

 

Didn't Ford US announce in one of their Fast Forward or whatever they call it press releases that the Boss name will be coming back with the development of the 6.2-liter engine? That will be mid 2009 if so.

[JETSOLVER]

Thought provoking stuff folks.

 

Supercharging is the cheap and easy way out for a small displacement engine. Which is what Ford has to work with RIGHT NOW and for the next few years anyway. The fact that they have not done any devleopment work on a true high-performance development of the MOD since the 00 R, leads me to think they have no taste for one. I appreciate the fact that they got the 4.6 3 valve to a very respectable number, but that engine is used in a large percentage of what Ford sells and I don't think its fair to call it high-performance.

 

Is anyone else a little annoyed that Ford is about to duplicate what D-C did with the HEMI, using the Boss name on everything from an old school crate motor(great block if thats your need), to a nebulous at best 09 Mustang varient? And its going to be released as a truck powerplant first? Good marketing, not so much for people like me.

 

And that wonderful Aussie engine? That is an iron block 5.4, and all the development is in the top end, I can see why the 80 horses for under a liter of displacement increase is not all that impressive from a marketing standpoint. The trick part of that is WHERE and HOW it makes that power. Familiar to older N/A fans but not the current market target.

[68fastback]

.

 

Yeah, the BOSS as a motor trademark only bothers me if Ford uses it to play games. If it's a stout motor and always used to designate the high-perf variant of the 'litter,' then it could be a good marketing move.

 

My concern with using it in a truck first is that it sort of diffuses/steps-on it's traditional meaning -- and that scares me. But the truck folks weild enormous clout so as long as they don't bastardize the name and leve the path clear for a hi-po Boss motor to find its way into a Boss 'stang, I guess I'm ok with that.

 

Why do I think the truck folks could give a rats a$$ about my logic tho

 

---------

 

Yeah, agree -- supercharging is what you do when you don't have displacement and can't meet CAFE with a powerhouse big-block without DoD, VVT, variable intake runners, etc ...or a really light car.

 

---------

 

Hate to say it, but even a GT500 will be hard pressed to keep up with the 505HP LS motor in a Camaro. Not because of the motor, but an alloy LS in a 3600lb Camaro is not an even match with a GT500. GM would have to be dense as a stump to not be engineering for that from the getgo -- all the BS about Camaro being near 4000lbs is GM gamesmanship.

 

FYI, about the same time Ford TM'd the BOSS engine brand, GM TM'd LSX as a motor brand too. When I posted that once before a couple of folks from SVTperf said I had it close, but was wrong on the GM motor brand name, but they did not respond either how they know that or what it actually is. But trademarks don't lie: it was filed as LSX or LSx (can' remember which).

 

That's precisely why Ford needs a stout NA gap filler soon -- The Camaro will likely start with the LS1 as it's hi-po engine and won't drop in the LS2 until the second year (just my gut, but they have to be agressive when second to the party). For the first year, the GT500 will nail the LS1, but that's not a matched race either nor is the GT a match. Hence, gotta have a 400+ HP NA stang in '08 (but I'll take '09 in a Boss <lol>) and big HP in '09 when GM will have 500+ alloy HP in Camaro and likely 500+ in the Chal.

 

.

<edit:>

CobraFan, re 6.2L: supposedly there's no way we're seeing it on the refreshed '09 and more likely '12 ground-up new stang. But I'm not buying that. The mustang has to have it during the refresh years ('09-11)

and somehow Ford has got to get that in-plan, or else plan on building a whole lot of kicked-up GT500s motors -- not likely. So I think that if the trucks get the 6.2L in '08, it will find it's way into the 'stang fairly soon afterwards (just my gut, no inside/facts)

 

.

[JETSOLVER]

I really hope this isn't just sour grapes, but the FRPP SEMA GT500 labled "professional road racer"(FR 500 GT) has a version of the 5.0 l CAMMER at 534 horses!!! That detuned a bit would make for the BOSS car we all want!!! But it sounds like its a non-starter....esp at 225k!! :wacko: Please Ford, SVT, H.T.T., the God's I didn't believe in, PLEASE?

 

Oops here is the link autoblog/Scary three

[MustangFanatic]

Certainly excellent thoughts and I agree that production capacity at Romeo could be a huge limiting factor. However, it appears from today's news that the '09 Boss will be powered by (hopefully a 5.0L version) of the new Boss engine series (aka Hurricane) Personally, I don't know if Romeo will be the facility to produce this new engine series or if there is another location slotted to handle. I do believe this, if the new production Boss engines reflect the technology/design of Ford's new 3.5L V6 (which likely reveals Ford's current engine design ideas and engineering), the Boss engine series will ROCK!!! While the crate motor is exciting news, the new Boss engine series is earth-shattering. Let's hope that Ford produces a 400 hp 5.0L Boss engine for the '09 Boss Mustang!!! I'm placing my order now.... :happy feet:

[JETSOLVER]

I really hope this isn't just sour grapes, but the FRPP SEMA GT500 labled "professional road racer"(FR 500 GT) has a version of the 5.0 l CAMMER at 534 horses!!! That detuned a bit would make for the BOSS car we all want!!!

 

 

 

More details on that PERFECT MOD engine!

 

"It's supposed to make 550HP (flywheel) with ported heads, custom cams, a dual runner intake, and 100 octane gas." I'll bet that thing weighs less than the work of art in my engine bay. I would consider moving to the southern states in the summer to be near a class one circuit to drive on as much as possible with that.

Dan what is real estate by Watkins Glen worth? And did anyone notice the very prominent use of the hallowed name COBRA on the side of the FR 500 GT?? That would be a GOOD thing!

[MustangFanatic]

More details on that PERFECT MOD engine!

 

"It's supposed to make 550HP (flywheel) with ported heads, custom cams, a dual runner intake, and 100 octane gas." I'll bet that thing weighs less than the work of art in my engine bay. I would consider moving to the southern states in the summer to be near a class one circuit to drive on as much as possible with that.

Dan what is real estate by Watkins Glen worth? And did anyone notice the very prominent use of the hallowed name COBRA on the side of the FR 500 GT?? That would be a GOOD thing!

 

 

Agreed, that is the ultimate mod motor (and it has the killer look to match!) Ford should quit screwing around with Shelby and deliver a totally balanced performer in the new Boss. Bring back Coletti as a consultant if necessary, just build a total bad Boss Mustang with at least 400 NA horsepower.

 

I did notice the Cobra moniker and agree that is a good thing. SVT was producing kick butt performance vehicles long before Ole Shel arrived and they can again without his help. Jet, I'm with you....Ford has one last chance to deliver the goods with the Boss, they better make it count.

[C0braFan]

Agreed, that is the ultimate mod motor (and it has the killer look to match!) Ford should quit screwing around with Shelby and deliver a totally balanced performer in the new Boss. Bring back Coletti as a consultant if necessary, just build a total bad Boss Mustang with at least 400 NA horsepower.

 

 

 

Here's the big "IF" that's been on my mind for the past month...

 

It would be great if Ford builds a killer N/A Boss engine...

 

 

IF Ford is still around 3 years from now. Ford simple can't continue to hemmorage $1.7b a month for much longer. Now long until it's all over for FoMoCo? Only as long as it takes for a strategic offer to come along from Toyota. Before that happens, though, we'll likely see more subsidiaries sold off to pay the bills (i.e. Hertz, which only gave Ford 2 months of breathing room).