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Let me start by saying I love the car...nothing I have ever owned has gotten so many looks.

 

However, these are the issues I am "working with" Ford Racing to fix:

 

1. Drivers side hood pin plate has lifted on one side

2. Passenger side hood pin has no resistance and falls out

3. Passenger side roof stripe has two bubbles hear the enter of the door

4. Passenger side trunk stripe has large bubble at the top near window

5. Hood scoop is lifting on drivers side and has warping on both sides in two places each side

6. Hood has two contaminant bumps under paint (drivers side upper area)

7. Hood has some red mark of some kind on the paint (passenger side upper area near window)

8. The letter "Y" on rear truck lid is loose

9. Left hood stripe has a bubble where there looks to be some contaminant or paint issue underneath.

10. There is a metal on metal sound from the rear when going over a bump.

11. The black bars behind front grill are loosing their black paint

12. Hurst shifter vibrates badly at acceleration or at speeds greater than 45 mph

 

Additionally I would warn everyone do not ever attempt to rub or pick at anything on any of the stripes you will scratch them.

 

I have yet to hear back what they will cover or fix and while BUD and SAI have always said they will make things right, Ford Racing is not so forgiving and has said they will decide not SAI what will or will not be fixed.

 

FYI!

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Matt,

 

This just confirms that I need to have the stripes painted on when I get my car. Totally against what I wanted to do :blink:

 

The shifter issue sounds like either a equipment defect or loose mount.

 

Somewhat disheartening on the Ford Racing vs. SAI judgement on the issues. That's not a good sign at all. Good luck. I know you'll keep us posted.

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Let me start by saying I love the car...nothing I have ever owned has gotten so many looks.

 

However, these are the issues I am "working with" Ford Racing to fix:

 

1. Drivers side hood pin plate has lifted on one side

2. Passenger side hood pin has no resistance and falls out

3. Passenger side roof stripe has two bubbles hear the enter of the door

4. Passenger side trunk stripe has large bubble at the top near window

5. Hood scoop is lifting on drivers side and has warping on both sides in two places each side

6. Hood has two contaminant bumps under paint (drivers side upper area)

7. Hood has some red mark of some kind on the paint (passenger side upper area near window)

8. The letter "Y" on rear truck lid is loose

9. Left hood stripe has a bubble where there looks to be some contaminant or paint issue underneath.

10. There is a metal on metal sound from the rear when going over a bump.

11. The black bars behind front grill are loosing their black paint

12. Hurst shifter vibrates badly at acceleration or at speeds greater than 45 mph

 

Additionally I would warn everyone do not ever attempt to rub or pick at anything on any of the stripes you will scratch them.

 

I have yet to hear back what they will cover or fix and while BUD and SAI have always said they will make things right, Ford Racing is not so forgiving and has said they will decide not SAI what will or will not be fixed.

 

FYI!

 

 

I have had troubles with 2,5,8 & 11. Plus a few small bubbles in the stripes.

 

For the pins, I adjusted the studs so that I had to slightly press the hood down to install the pin + I had to have SAI send me the new rings so that they don't pop out of holes in the sides of the pin. The new rings are thicker wire and really fix it.

 

Scoop is scheduled for install next week.

 

I got 3M emblem and trim adhesive to fix the "Y" on mine. Really solid now. I might buy another set of letters just in case I lose one, but the adhesive really fixes it. Just use it sparingly.

 

The paint on the grill bars is probably something I'll also fix myself with touch-up paint, but it is hardly noticable.

 

The small bubbles in the stripes can be fixed by using a pin or needle to poke a hole in the stripe (lets the air out) and smooth it flat.

 

I really don't want a dealer working on things unless I have to. I'm a little worried about the scoop being fixed right because (a) I don't trust a dealer who has never install one and (B) I don't think SAI has the permanent solution with the replacement scoop.

 

I have an early s/n and I don't have the exhaust rattle because it looks like there is plenty of clearance between the muffler brackets and the body. I must be lucky that they install the exhast system correctly on mine.

 

My shifter is solid and doesn't vibrate.

 

My only real grip with the car is the lack of a spare tire/wheel. So I bought one from the dealer I only wish I didn't have to pay so much for it. And yes it fits and works well even though our cars are lowered.

 

Other than the scoop and spare, I think the car is perfect. Tinkering with a few things that I can correct seems to make me feel good.

 

Good luck

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I have to say that some of the issues I have read about and seen are "Putting me Off". Ford is charging over $8K for this Shelby package and there are several problems. Please don't misunderstand me....I like the idea of the car and the history ( my first car was a 1964 1/2 coupe) and I certainly like the way it looks from a distance. On closer inspection, there are problems with the hood scoop/tape stripes/lettering. This car is 19 HP more than a GT but what are you really getting for your extra $8K ? I cant see spending $40K + and having Ford and Shelby tell you that they are "Working Out" warranty issues. I would have no patience for that crap.

I know this may offend some of you but again I do like the idea of this car. Its not the first time one of the big 3 have deceived the public with " Limited Edition " nonsense ( aka Pace Car Junk).

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It's amazing how sensitive those stripes are and the hood scoop is something that needs to be fixed permantly.

I notice slack in the shifter but no vibration. After putting it on a rack and checking the bolts, I chalked it up to rubber bushings. It needs poly.

 

 

Stump,

I thought the Hurst had poly bushings. There are 2 models. One is solid billet the other is a less expensive version of conventional bar and steel. I don't think they uses the solid billet on the SGT's though.

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Stump,

I thought the Hurst had poly bushings. There are 2 models. One is solid billet the other is a less expensive version of conventional bar and steel. I don't think they uses the solid billet on the SGT's though.

 

I wasn't able to tell for sure as when I reached up to the shifter, I burnt the BLEEP out of my arm and sported a 2nd degree burn about the size of a pint Mason jar lid for about two weeks. The bushings were black and lighting was not the best and with the jumping the shifter does I just assumed rubber. On of these days I'll find out for sure - when the exhaust is not so hot!... :D

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I have to say that some of the issues I have read about and seen are "Putting me Off". Ford is charging over $8K for this Shelby package and there are several problems. Please don't misunderstand me....I like the idea of the car and the history ( my first car was a 1964 1/2 coupe) and I certainly like the way it looks from a distance. On closer inspection, there are problems with the hood scoop/tape stripes/lettering. This car is 19 HP more than a GT but what are you really getting for your extra $8K ? I cant see spending $40K + and having Ford and Shelby tell you that they are "Working Out" warranty issues. I would have no patience for that crap.

I know this may offend some of you but again I do like the idea of this car. Its not the first time one of the big 3 have deceived the public with " Limited Edition " nonsense ( aka Pace Car Junk).

 

 

Most of us are really anal about these kinds of cars. The scoop isn't really as bad as you think, it's just noticable and should be corrected. If it was something else on another part of the car that doesn't get much attention (like the paint off the backing bars on the grill), then, I probably wouldn;t do anything. I'm much less fussy about my Camrys, etc. I really love this car and I've never seen a new car that didn't have some issues. I also have no regets about buying it. It makes me feel so good when I drive it and it is the best looking car that man has ever made, IMHO.

 

Two weeks ago SAI (Doug Sinclair) gave me a toll free number to give to my dealer, the dealer looked at the scoop, called them while I was there and SAI had the scoop delivered overnight and they had it the next day. It's just that the dealer couldn't schedule an appointment to install until next week. SAI also overnighted the new rings for the hood pins for me, only I didn't have to go to a dealer for that. Doug Sinclair did that for me.

 

As far are only 319 hp, well this car is quicker than almost any muscle car made in the sixties and seventies including the '66 GT350. 13.5 sec in the 1/4 at 103 mph beats my 70 Chevelle SS396 by alot. It also beats the SS454 too and it beats the '67 GT500. For a muscle car, it also drives well and handles great and has all of the mods I would have added to the standard GT if I had gotten one of those. I also like the Shelby panache!

 

Like said, no and I mean no regrets. If you really like the way this car looks, then get it. You won't be sorry.

 

]

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You need to address concerns with the dealer that sold you the Shelby. Just like any warranty repairs they are covered and paid at Ford warranty rates. Mark

 

 

Exactly what I am doing.

 

My issue is my dealer has confirmed every issue but was told by Ford Racing they had to take pictures and then Ford Racing would say if something was covered. In other words it doesn't matter if your dealer confirms the issues if FR doesn't see what they want in the pictures you are out of luck! Some of the issues are seen only when at a specific angle and I have no idea what the quality of the camera was etc., it really blew me away the guy's attitude at FR. In fact I asked him if there was a regional person that if needed to inspect the car and he said "no I make the decision" in the tone of voice you know isn't good. <_<

 

I'll let you all know how I make out.

 

:unsure:

 

 

 

Two weeks ago SAI (Doug Sinclair) gave me a toll free number to give to my dealer, the dealer looked at the scoop, called them while I was there and SAI had the scoop delivered overnight and they had it the next day. It's just that the dealer couldn't schedule an appointment to install until next week. SAI also overnighted the new rings for the hood pins for me, only I didn't have to go to a dealer for that. Doug Sinclair did that for me.

 

Like said, no and I mean no regrets. If you really like the way this car looks, then get it. You won't be sorry.

 

 

 

No regrets here!

 

But your experience hasn't been my experience. :( I was told by FR that SAI shouldn't be handling any of these claims and they need to go to FR ONLY.

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I have to say that some of the issues I have read about and seen are "Putting me Off". Ford is charging over $8K for this Shelby package and there are several problems. Please don't misunderstand me....I like the idea of the car and the history ( my first car was a 1964 1/2 coupe) and I certainly like the way it looks from a distance. On closer inspection, there are problems with the hood scoop/tape stripes/lettering. This car is 19 HP more than a GT but what are you really getting for your extra $8K ? I cant see spending $40K + and having Ford and Shelby tell you that they are "Working Out" warranty issues. I would have no patience for that crap.

I know this may offend some of you but again I do like the idea of this car. Its not the first time one of the big 3 have deceived the public with " Limited Edition " nonsense ( aka Pace Car Junk).

 

If you're letting the small things put you off, don't. This car does not compare to a stock GT (assuming you're in the Pony car market) and as a matter of fact, the stock GT feels cheap and toyish compared to the SGT because of the package upgrades. The small things are annoying yes, but I have faith that SAI is reading our posts and is coming up with a solution - especially to the scoop issue since it's right out there in the open for everyone to see and directly reflects on t the quality of the vehicle. I am having issues with my scoop, even to the point of looking at aftermarket hoods and putting the original in storage but I do not regret for a second buying this car. Well, maybe for a second when I write the car payment every month but then a quick drive remedies that little problem. :D

Understand something else, this is coming from a Mustang hater, at least until this car.

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The only problem i had was that I had a early CSM car was the missing floor mats, but one call from the dealer to SAI and they were here within a couple days, I have a couple TINY TINY bubbles in the hood scoop stripe, but they arent big enough to warrant any drastic measures

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Most of us are really anal about these kinds of cars. The scoop isn't really as bad as you think, it's just noticable and should be corrected. If it was something else on another part of the car that doesn't get much attention (like the paint off the backing bars on the grill), then, I probably wouldn;t do anything. I'm much less fussy about my Camrys, etc. I really love this car and I've never seen a new car that didn't have some issues. I also have no regets about buying it. It makes me feel so good when I drive it and it is the best looking car that man has ever made, IMHO.

 

Two weeks ago SAI (Doug Sinclair) gave me a toll free number to give to my dealer, the dealer looked at the scoop, called them while I was there and SAI had the scoop delivered overnight and they had it the next day. It's just that the dealer couldn't schedule an appointment to install until next week. SAI also overnighted the new rings for the hood pins for me, only I didn't have to go to a dealer for that. Doug Sinclair did that for me.

 

As far are only 319 hp, well this car is quicker than almost any muscle car made in the sixties and seventys including the '66 GT350. 13.5 sec in the 1/4 at 103 mph beats my 70 Chevelle SS396 by alot. It also beats the SS454 too and it beats the '67 GT500. For a muscle car, it also drives well and handles great and has all of the mods I would have added to the standard GT if I had gotten one of those. I also like the Shelby panache!

 

Like said, no and I mean no regrets. If you really like the way this car looks, then get it. You won't be sorry.

 

]

 

hi who is Doug Sinclair this is what makes it hard to figure out what to do when you want something fixed SAI should put out the word on who to call ,my dealer called the # bud give me which was FR and they wanted pictures and its been a couple weeks and nothing ,,, tomorrow i will see what is going on but not to happy about it ....

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hi who is Doug Sinclair this is what makes it hard to figure out what to do when you want something fixed SAI should put out the word on who to call ,my dealer called the # bud give me which was FR and they wanted pictures and its been a couple weeks and nothing ,,, tomorrow i will see what is going on but not to happy about it ....

 

 

Couple of weeks? :(

 

ugh...

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hi who is Doug Sinclair this is what makes it hard to figure out what to do when you want something fixed SAI should put out the word on who to call ,my dealer called the # bud give me which was FR and they wanted pictures and its been a couple weeks and nothing ,,, tomorrow i will see what is going on but not to happy about it ....

 

 

Call the SAI number that is on their web page and ask for Shelby GT warranty service or just ask for Doug Sinclair. He'll tell you what you need to do. Of course, it's been three weeks since I did this and things could have changed on how they handle this problem.

 

As far as the scoop problem, mine does have a little gap but it really isn' that bad. If I didn't have the internet to know about other people getting theirs replaced with one that has improvements, then I probably would haven't done anything.

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The only problem i had was that I had a early CSM car was the missing floor mats, but one call from the dealer to SAI and they were here within a couple days, I have a couple TINY TINY bubbles in the hood scoop stripe, but they arent big enough to warrant any drastic measures

 

 

Like I said above, the fix for "tiny bubbles" (hey, there's an old song with that name) is to use a pin to let the air out and smooth flat. I saw this on one of the reality car shows recently on how to install stripes and this is how the pros fix it.

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Like I said above, the fix for "tiny bubbles" (hey, there's an old song with that name) is to use a pin to let the air out and smooth flat. I saw this on one of the reality car shows recently on how to install stripes and this is how the pros fix it.

 

 

 

You are correct BUT if YOU do it you loose or complicate your warranty and given Ford Racing's attitude I would say that's not a good idea. Even if it is a pin hole let the dealer do it. If they mess it up THEY replace it, if you mess it up, and it can happen, you're out of luck. IMHO!

 

Personally I'm not taking any chances and making the dealer fix even the tiny 1/4" bubbles for sure the almost 1" bubble on the trunk.

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You are correct BUT if YOU do it you loose or complicate your warranty and given Ford Racing's attitude I would say that's not a good idea. Even if it is a pin hole let the dealer do it. If they mess it up THEY replace it, if you mess it up, and it can happen, you're out of luck. IMHO!

 

Personally I'm not taking any chances and making the dealer fix even the tiny 1/4" bubbles for sure the almost 1" bubble on the trunk.

 

Matt, are you dealing directly with Ford Racing or was it the dealership "representative" making the call? I did not have the same experience and Ford Racing covered my stripe issues without question and I have touch-up paint on my stripes. The dealership guy does not make the call and if he is the one jerking you around, you might try another dealership. All they did on mine was take several pics and do a service write up. The next day I got the call.

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Most of us are really anal about these kinds of cars. The scoop isn't really as bad as you think, it's just noticable and should be corrected. If it was something else on another part of the car that doesn't get much attention (like the paint off the backing bars on the grill), then, I probably wouldn;t do anything. I'm much less fussy about my Camrys, etc. I really love this car and I've never seen a new car that didn't have some issues. I also have no regets about buying it. It makes me feel so good when I drive it and it is the best looking car that man has ever made, IMHO.

 

Two weeks ago SAI (Doug Sinclair) gave me a toll free number to give to my dealer, the dealer looked at the scoop, called them while I was there and SAI had the scoop delivered overnight and they had it the next day. It's just that the dealer couldn't schedule an appointment to install until next week. SAI also overnighted the new rings for the hood pins for me, only I didn't have to go to a dealer for that. Doug Sinclair did that for me.

 

As far are only 319 hp, well this car is quicker than almost any muscle car made in the sixties and seventies including the '66 GT350. 13.5 sec in the 1/4 at 103 mph beats my 70 Chevelle SS396 by alot. It also beats the SS454 too and it beats the '67 GT500. For a muscle car, it also drives well and handles great and has all of the mods I would have added to the standard GT if I had gotten one of those. I also like the Shelby panache!

 

Like said, no and I mean no regrets. If you really like the way this car looks, then get it. You won't be sorry.

 

]

 

 

Regarding the quarter mile times of the '60s. Hot Rod magazine tested the 1968 500KR at a blistering 14.01 sec. in the quarter @102.73 mph.

 

Most of the other period muscle cars tested were 14 or 15 second cars.

 

Confirming that we need not have horsepower envy.

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Matt, are you dealing directly with Ford Racing or was it the dealership "representative" making the call? I did not have the same experience and Ford Racing covered my stripe issues without question and I have touch-up paint on my stripes. The dealership guy does not make the call and if he is the one jerking you around, you might try another dealership. All they did on mine was take several pics and do a service write up. The next day I got the call.

 

 

Little of both. My dealer called them and was told that "because there were so many issues" they wanted the dealer to take pictures and upload them to a web site. My dealer had never been asked by Ford to do that and was surprised. I followed up with a call to the same number and talked to the same guy. He wasn't at all friendly and implied that "HE" was the one that was going to make the decision. When I questioned him how he could see small bubbles, paint imperfections you can only feel, and my concern that the dealership may not take a picture at the right angle or with a high enough quality camera, he seemed to get really miffed and said if it's there, he can see it.

 

When pressed, he wouldn't give me an answer what the next step was if he didn't see what we do locally. He then changed his line of reasoning by saying the pictures were not to deny warranty repair but to help understand the issues and deal with quality issues. But that doesn't make any sense since the work isn't approved until he says so otherwise they would take the dealer's word allow the repairs and get the pics before the work is done.

 

Anyway, maybe it's the number of issues that's the problem, but still you would think they could be a little more helpful and given Ford's financial issues, a little more customer friendly?

 

I really came off the call with a feeling he was going to deny my claims if there was any way possible.

 

:(

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Matt,

 

The process you are experiencing is NOT abnormal for a dealership with personel following the book.

 

I had warranty claim on my 03 Cobra. It was the biggest hastle I have ever had with ANY car I have ever owned.

 

I did force myself to understand the process though and now I realize the dealership was not making my life difficult, which it did seem to me, that they were doing.

 

I had the entire front end sheet metal in misalignment. Not by a little but off by almost 3/8". If you stood in front of the car and sighted down the drivers side of the car the entire hood, right and left fender was shifted to the right.

 

The gaps on the hood and fender to "A" pillar were way off also. No gap at the driver side and 3/8" on the passengers side. It took an act of congress to get a rep out to look at the car. That was after weeks of visiting the dealer, taking photo's of the issue, the part number tags etc.

 

One of the reasons was to protect the integrity of the warranty claims portion of the Ford Motor Company.

 

It was very easy to manipulate the system. False claims, parts for the writers car under another claim etc. It was also explained that the this could speed up the approval process by not having to wait for a rep. Well it was and apparently still is not an efficient system. I just thought that I would share my experience. Maybe a Ford dealer can chime in here on the process.

 

It will work out in the end. I do see your point on not doing this yourself. I agree. For me, I will not let them fix anything cosmetic. I have some ability and enough contacts that I would take care of it myself. But that is just me and I am anal. Well that's what my wife says anyway. :rolleyes:

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It will work out in the end. I do see your point on not doing this yourself. I agree. For me, I will not let them fix anything cosmetic. I have some ability and enough contacts that I would take care of it myself. But that is just me and I am anal. Well that's what my wife says anyway. :rolleyes:

 

 

Yikes! Your experience sounds even worse. We'll see what happens I guess.

 

Thanks!

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Matt,

 

It really comes down to the relationship and confidence you have with your dealer. I would be in line waiting my turn and hear the moaning and growning. Hey they all had a right. It's an expensive accuisiton. But there is a right and wrong way to go about it. In my early years I worked as a service writer in a Chevrolet store. It was really about the realtionship I could foster with the client.

 

If they were a PIA I would still smile but there would be no sence of ungency to assign that job to a top tech. However, the reasonable person would usually have the job assiged to one of the better tech's.

 

When I dealt with the Ford Cobra issue, I went right to the body shop manager. He was strung out. He had more work than he had people to do the work. I could see that and really went somewhat easy on him. I was persistant but not arrogant. He bent over backwards to make sure I was happy. Also made serveral calls to keep me posted. I had no gripe. Just the car was a Lemon and Ford did a buy back. I do believe in the end, that if I were a jerk about the situation, I may not have had such a painless settlement. It was aggrivating, but it all worked for the better. I purchased an 04 Cobra and could not have been more happy.

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Little of both. My dealer called them and was told that "because there were so many issues" they wanted the dealer to take pictures and upload them to a web site. My dealer had never been asked by Ford to do that and was surprised. I followed up with a call to the same number and talked to the same guy. He wasn't at all friendly and implied that "HE" was the one that was going to make the decision. When I questioned him how he could see small bubbles, paint imperfections you can only feel, and my concern that the dealership may not take a picture at the right angle or with a high enough quality camera, he seemed to get really miffed and said if it's there, he can see it.

 

When pressed, he wouldn't give me an answer what the next step was if he didn't see what we do locally. He then changed his line of reasoning by saying the pictures were not to deny warranty repair but to help understand the issues and deal with quality issues. But that doesn't make any sense since the work isn't approved until he says so otherwise they would take the dealer's word allow the repairs and get the pics before the work is done.

 

Anyway, maybe it's the number of issues that's the problem, but still you would think they could be a little more helpful and given Ford's financial issues, a little more customer friendly?

 

I really came off the call with a feeling he was going to deny my claims if there was any way possible.

 

:(

 

 

Matt- Wow. What a ricdicluous situation I wish you the best. By the way just how many issues did you have on the Shelby? Can you list them so we can all see what type of things they are taking into consideration and possibly won't cover. Then we will be able to address our situations a different way to get them covered. Thanks Matt I know you'll help us all on this forum if you can. :)

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Matt- Wow. What a ricdicluous situation I wish you the best. By the way just how many issues did you have on the Shelby? Can you list them so we can all see what type of things they are taking into consideration and possibly won't cover. Then we will be able to address our situations a different way to get them covered. Thanks Matt I know you'll help us all on this forum if you can. :)

 

 

The list is the first post here. There are 12 items, the majority of which have been seen before, but such is life.

 

I'll keep you all updated for sure!

 

;)

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Folks, it's a Ford and then it's a Shelby. Lets get back to the racing, performance, status (if you're into such things), etc...My '69 is a total piece of junk (if I looked at it as a daily transportation auto) - my passenger-side door handle is broken right now - always some sort of problem, always been some sort of problem.. I love my '69, imperfections and all. My wife's Lincoln Navigator? Nothing but trouble (anyone want to buy me out of this one?). I expect my '07 Shelby to have all kinds of problems, but, stickers (oh sorry, stripes) coming loose? Come on. It won't affect your 1/4 mile times, or your moto-cross performance. And the hoop scoop warping? It's a feature....I'm still upset over my 1/4 mile times.

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If you're letting the small things put you off, don't. This car does not compare to a stock GT (assuming you're in the Pony car market) and as a matter of fact, the stock GT feels cheap and toyish compared to the SGT because of the package upgrades. The small things are annoying yes, but I have faith that SAI is reading our posts and is coming up with a solution - especially to the scoop issue since it's right out there in the open for everyone to see and directly reflects on t the quality of the vehicle. I am having issues with my scoop, even to the point of looking at aftermarket hoods and putting the original in storage but I do not regret for a second buying this car. Well, maybe for a second when I write the car payment every month but then a quick drive remedies that little problem. :D

Understand something else, this is coming from a Mustang hater, at least until this car.

 

 

 

The real solution to this scoop issue is to rivet an identical functional aluminum to the hood , would that be cool ...............YA ................and as simple a fix as possible because it will be a real fix. you only need two paint schemes , and the sam stripes................ZDS

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Folks, it's a Ford and then it's a Shelby. Lets get back to the racing, performance, status (if you're into such things), etc...My '69 is a total piece of junk (if I looked at it as a daily transportation auto) - my passenger-side door handle is broken right now - always some sort of problem, always been some sort of problem.. I love my '69, imperfections and all. My wife's Lincoln Navigator? Nothing but trouble (anyone want to buy me out of this one?). I expect my '07 Shelby to have all kinds of problems, but, stickers (oh sorry, stripes) coming loose? Come on. It won't affect your 1/4 mile times, or your moto-cross performance. And the hoop scoop warping? It's a feature....I'm still upset over my 1/4 mile times.

 

 

That's what is important to you. But other owners have the issues that bother them. It effects everyone differently. I don't expect that when I receive my car from the Mod Shop that it will be a perfect car, but to me that's the bonding part. I love tinkering and making it just right. Other's just have higher expectatios. I think I would have issues on a $50,000 Shelby if my "stickers" stripes were in bad shape also. :blink:

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