savage1969 Posted May 24, 2007 Report Share Posted May 24, 2007 I'm not complaining, I just don't quite understand how this got left unnoticed. Don’t bash me, but I’m a Chevy guy by birth so I’ve had to crash-course myself into a Mustang gearhead after my SGT purchase. You know, figuring out all the details of the S197 (if you can’t beat’em, join’em ). Anyway, after having the car on a lift to detail the bottom for an upcoming car show, I noticed a rather odd omission in this car’s conversion from a standard GT to an SGT. When SAI added the FRPP Handling Pack, I think production forgot about rear axle alignment (as well as driveline alignment). Since the vehicle is lowered between 1.25 & 1.5 inches, the axle is shifted to the left because of the suspension geometry. In my case it’s a quarter inch or better. You guys that had 20’s installed should really notice when you get your cars delivered. They may even rub slightly on the left side fenders. It seems that someone should have designed and added a corrective-length pan hard bar to bring the axle back into alignment at its rested stance. I further believe that the upper third-link control arm may be out of whack also, making the driveline slightly out of square. Someone back me up. Go out to your car with a soft-material straight edge (a wooden yard stick will do) and place it horizontal across the left-rear fender about a quarter down. I used a level and the rear fascia line as a guide. Notice the gap between your straight edge and the tire/wheel, if any, and then check the passenger side the same way. I am certain you will find that your left side is about flush and the right side has quite a gap. The vehicle is NOT square. (I know this experiment is not technically correct, but anyone can do it without technical skills. Just proving my point.). I am in no way claiming to be an expert, but have some quality experience in autocross setups and descent mechanical knowledge. Am I being too anal? Is it just my car? Like I said, I’m not complaining, it just seems odd to overlook what must be a well known issue when you lower one of these beauties. Thoughts? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ilmor Posted May 24, 2007 Report Share Posted May 24, 2007 I was wondering the same thing after I read a post on mustangforums.com yesterday regarding lowering the car and adj. panhard bars. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
savage1969 Posted May 24, 2007 Author Report Share Posted May 24, 2007 Honestly, I was not trying to start a bashing thread, it just seems like a rather large oversight. I can fix it myself for about $300-400, I just didn't expect to have the situation to begin with. Peace. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ilmor Posted May 24, 2007 Report Share Posted May 24, 2007 Honestly, I was not trying to start a bashing thread, it just seems like a rather large oversight. I can fix it myself for about $300-400, I just didn't expect to have the situation to begin with. Peace. Actually you can probably fix it for half that cost or better w/ your own labor. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ilmor Posted May 24, 2007 Report Share Posted May 24, 2007 To be fair to SAI, this has not been confirmed to be a real issue yet. My car seems to track perfectly down the road; I would think if the axle was swung to the right or left it would have a tendency to rear-steer, wouldn't it? Or maybe this will manifest itself in the form of increased rear tire wear. Who knows at this point. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
savage1969 Posted May 24, 2007 Author Report Share Posted May 24, 2007 I always do my own repairs on my toys, but a good quality bar =~150 and 3rd link =~125 plus shipping. If you are already that far into it, might as well upgrade the brace as well. Just thinking. Maybe someone else will check their measurements. I'd like to know the average offset figures out of curiosity. Actually you can probably fix it for half that cost or better w/ your own labor. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
07SGT0057 Posted May 24, 2007 Report Share Posted May 24, 2007 Nor I .....cause frankly, I dont have that much time..... But its a shame that the first thing so many of us have to do is .....repair the car we just bought. PEACE. yup.. what ive done so far also.. not only that, paid for new springs and installation.. well atleast the hoodscoop they will cover under waranty. I'm not complaining, I just don't quite understand how this got left unnoticed. Don’t bash me, but I’m a Chevy guy by birth so I’ve had to crash-course myself into a Mustang gearhead after my SGT purchase. You know, figuring out all the details of the S197 (if you can’t beat’em, join’em ). Anyway, after having the car on a lift to detail the bottom for an upcoming car show, I noticed a rather odd omission in this car’s conversion from a standard GT to an SGT. When SAI added the FRPP Handling Pack, I think production forgot about rear axle alignment (as well as driveline alignment). Since the vehicle is lowered between 1.25 & 1.5 inches, the axle is shifted to the left because of the suspension geometry. In my case it’s a quarter inch or better. You guys that had 20’s installed should really notice when you get your cars delivered. They may even rub slightly on the left side fenders. It seems that someone should have designed and added a corrective-length pan hard bar to bring the axle back into alignment at its rested stance. I further believe that the upper third-link control arm may be out of whack also, making the driveline slightly out of square. Someone back me up. Go out to your car with a soft-material straight edge (a wooden yard stick will do) and place it horizontal across the left-rear fender about a quarter down. I used a level and the rear fascia line as a guide. Notice the gap between your straight edge and the tire/wheel, if any, and then check the passenger side the same way. I am certain you will find that your left side is about flush and the right side has quite a gap. The vehicle is NOT square. (I know this experiment is not technically correct, but anyone can do it without technical skills. Just proving my point.). I am in no way claiming to be an expert, but have some quality experience in autocross setups and descent mechanical knowledge. Am I being too anal? Is it just my car? Like I said, I’m not complaining, it just seems odd to overlook what must be a well known issue when you lower one of these beauties. Thoughts? sav, can you give us a diagram on how you measure it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ShelbyPilot Posted May 24, 2007 Report Share Posted May 24, 2007 .....When I had my wheels installed the tire sales man who has a nicely built '06 GT told me about the possible need for an adjustable panhard rod. I think my wheels are pushed out about as far ad they can go and I don't have a rubbing issue but if I look really close they maybe offset a 1/4" or so. I may order one but I am not sold yet. I can't find one in the FRPP online catalog. Maybe that is why the Shelby GTs don't have one. It is not included in the handling pack. Roush and Steeda sell one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
04Retro Posted May 24, 2007 Report Share Posted May 24, 2007 Could this be an rear axle assembly installation issue? PLEASE correct me if I'm wrong but I recall reading somewhere that the Shelby GT's get the upgrade to a 3.55 rearend NOT by a mere gear swap but that the entire rearend is dropped and replaced as a unit--apparently cheaper and quikcer then opeing the diff and playing with the grears. I'm assuming the removed rearends go over to a diff specrapt where the rear gears are changed and then sent back to Shelby. If that is the case then the alignment issues would appear to come about whent he new rears are installed at SAI. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
savage1969 Posted May 24, 2007 Author Report Share Posted May 24, 2007 sav, can you give us a diagram on how you measure it? Technically it needs to be measured on an alignment rack. For purposes of proving the point, just measure the distance between the fenders and your wheel as described above (not front-to-rear, but laterally side-to-side). Could this be an rear axle assembly installation issue? PLEASE correct me if I'm wrong but I recall reading somewhere that the Shelby GT's get the upgrade to a 3.55 rearend NOT by a mere gear swap but that the entire rearend is dropped and replaced as a unit--apparently cheaper and quikcer then opeing the diff and playing with the grears. I'm assuming the removed rearends go over to a diff specrapt where the rear gears are changed and then sent back to Shelby. If that is the case then the alignment issues would appear to come about whent he new rears are installed at SAI. It's because of the rear suspension geometry, plain and simple. The more I see it on the lift rack, the more it makes since. The further the rear suspension is compressed, the more the axle moves laterally toward the left. Given that fact, it should still be setup to track square at its idle (or rested) stance. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ShelbyPilot Posted May 24, 2007 Report Share Posted May 24, 2007 ....PLEASE correct me if I'm wrong but I recall reading somewhere that the Shelby GT's get the upgrade to a 3.55 rearend NOT by a mere gear swap but that the entire rearend is dropped and replaced as a unit.... That is on the automatic cars only. The manuals are shipped to SAI with the 3.55 from Ford. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
04Retro Posted May 24, 2007 Report Share Posted May 24, 2007 Thanks for the quick correction--much appreciated. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
07SGT0547 Posted May 24, 2007 Report Share Posted May 24, 2007 Mine's off about 1/4" as well... But it's also off the same amount on my wife's 2006 V6 Mustang Coupe (5-Speed & Bone Stock)... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
im4seven Posted May 25, 2007 Report Share Posted May 25, 2007 Has anybody made the same measurements at the front wheels? (I would make the measurement at the center of the wheel to minimize the effect of a slight turn to the right or left). Perhaps the car is engineered that way because of weight distribution or something. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WP64 Posted May 25, 2007 Report Share Posted May 25, 2007 Ok guys, here's how you check your lateral rear end alignment w/o a rack. Take some string, about 20 inches will do. Tie a plumb bob on one end, a 2 oz. fishing weight will work as well. Tape (blue painters tape is prefered) the free end to the top of the wheel well on the outside where it's flat just above the edge; the weight should be centered to the wheel's center. Let the line settle and measure the distance from the tire to the string, the distance should be even from side to side BUT there can be a 1/8" difference from side to side and still be acceptable. Remember that as the diff. moves up and down it also shifts laterally from side to side, as the diff. moves down, or away from the body, it shifts to the left (driver's side) and as the diff. moves up, or closer to the body, it shifts to the right (pass. side). The upper and lower control arms and the driveshaft are designed to move laterally as the diff. moves up and down in relation to the body. What you are doing with an adjustable panhard rod is setting the lateral diff. offset to neutral at static ride height, when the suspension starts to move up and down it is also shifting from side to side. If you are off laterally more than 1/8" at static ride height this is excessive and a corrected pan hard rod, or adjustable one, should be installed. I would suggest the Steeda or BMR adjustable pan hard rod with poly bushings. Hope that helps. Cheers, WP Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Webba Posted May 25, 2007 Report Share Posted May 25, 2007 it will be interesting to get a response from anyone at SAI in regards to this issue or non issue. If it is an issue then I would expect that a dealer installed panhard brace via warranty would be in order. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
savage1969 Posted May 25, 2007 Author Report Share Posted May 25, 2007 Remember that as the diff. moves up and down it also shifts laterally from side to side, as the diff. moves down, or away from the body, it shifts to the left (driver's side) and as the diff. moves up, or closer to the body, it shifts to the right (pass. side). The upper and lower control arms and the driveshaft are designed to move laterally as the diff. moves up and down in relation to the body. Good post (basically the same as I already described) except you have this info reversed. As the rear suspension is compressed, the axle assy pushes left (toward driver side). As the rear suspension rebounds to static or above, the axle assy pushes right (toward pass side) because of the pan hard bar and brace geometry. I agree with the rest of your post, except my original concern to start this thread. Doesn’t it seem odd that this situation was not corrected with a different pan har bar during pre-production and planning BEFORE releasing the vehicle to the general public? I don't think the average Joe-Blow is going to be very happy that he has to sink extra $ in parts & labor just to get the vehicle square directly after taking delivery. Personally, I am not complaining as I am going to beef-up the suspension components anyway, but I certainly see a bit of a situation here. That's all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ilmor Posted May 25, 2007 Report Share Posted May 25, 2007 I see your concern, however this is not really a proven issue yet so far as I see. Still, I am going to check mine because I am curious. I would like to hear from Shelby and/or Ford Racing regarding this concern, and their position on it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skip Posted May 25, 2007 Report Share Posted May 25, 2007 I have an 06 GT that I put the FR3 kit on and had a somewhat aggressive alignment done. Acording to my mechanic a alignment was needed, SAI says none is needed. I haven't noticed any real issues on my 06 GT or my 07 Shelby GT as far as abnormal tire wear. On the 06 rear end the drivers side measured about 1 1/2 inches, the passenger side was a little under 1/2 inch. I decided to go with the steeda adjustable panhard bar and brace as well as the upper 3rd link and lower control arms. The 06 does seem to corner a little better than the 07 but the 07 seems alittle tighter. Steeda says not to totally equal both sides. They recommend 3/8" offset, this is suppose to keep from over wearing the bushings. If you go with Steeda's upper 3rd link make sure that internally it is greased well. Mine was not and had to be broke down greased and repressed. I have not noticed any abnormal wear on the 07 and the difference between the drivers and passenger side was not as big as the 06 If I remember correctly it was just under 1/2" difference by the time you factor in the recommended 3/8" offset. On the 06 I had a lot of squeaks early on, even before changing the suspension out, the 07 has been fairly quiet. My 06 is a auto and the 07 is manual. I don't know if that makes any difference, just trying to help you guys out and let you know what I have experienced with the 2 mustangs. I will probrably wait for a while and see how things go on the 07 until I get some miles on her. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WP64 Posted May 25, 2007 Report Share Posted May 25, 2007 Good post (basically the same as I already described) except you have this info reversed. As the rear suspension is compressed, the axle assy pushes left (toward driver side). As the rear suspension rebounds to static or above, the axle assy pushes right (toward pass side) because of the pan hard bar and brace geometry. I agree with the rest of your post, except my original concern to start this thread. Doesn’t it seem odd that this situation was not corrected with a different pan har bar during pre-production and planning BEFORE releasing the vehicle to the general public? I don't think the average Joe-Blow is going to be very happy that he has to sink extra $ in parts & labor just to get the vehicle square directly after taking delivery. Personally, I am not complaining as I am going to beef-up the suspension components anyway, but I certainly see a bit of a situation here. That's all. Your right, I reversed it...My minds-eye fooled me again. Yes, it does seem odd to me that this was not corrected when the vehicle was lowered, replacing the panhard rod to correct lateral alignment of the diff. is typically considered manditory when lowering the rear of a vehicle. I've often found it interesting that most FRPP handling packs don't come with an adjustable panhard rod??? I've swapped out to BMR components on the upper and lower control arms, upper control arm support and the panhard rod and support; hook-up is much improved and no more wheel hop issues. Access my "gallery" here http://www.mymustangsite.com/WP/ for pictures of the BMR suspension mods/upgrades that I've done to my GT500. If you are serious about handling, as I am, check out the benifits of switching to a Watts Link system as used on Saleen's 07 Parnelli Jones Mustang http://www.saleen.com/saleen-parnellijones.htm . Unlike a panhard bar system that constrain the axle motion to an arc during jounce and rebound, the watts link allows the axle to move in a true vertical plane. The end result is a more tuneable and predictable vehicle on all road and track surfaces, handling is reported to be similar to a IRS system. So far, the Saleen system is the only one that I've seen for the S-197 body, I have seen Watts Link systems for the SN-95 body from other manufactures but it doesn't seem that Saleen is releasing their Watts Link system as a seperate part for sale...yet? Cheers, WP Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ShelbyPilot Posted May 25, 2007 Report Share Posted May 25, 2007 .....well just about the time I was ready to order a panhard bar you mention using the watts link, Is that instead of the panhard or in conjuction? I have heard there are aftermarket watts links in development. I am not running to a track anytime soon. Would you recommend getting the adjustable panhard rod now or waiting for the watts link. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RogerS Posted May 25, 2007 Report Share Posted May 25, 2007 socaljafo You have a very nice SGT/SC and tastful mods. I have bought from Michael Morris and have one in conversion with the SC and grille options, still debating on the hood. Don't know if I like the retro look more? Any way, FYI, the Saleen Parnelli Jones edition utilizes a watts link set up. Here is the pic of the unit. I would think that with 400 na HP and a racing pedigree the development went into closely replicating the Boss 302 Trans Am cars. I would think that if you are going to track the car, this would be the optimal setup. Here is link for purchase: http://www.haneymotorsport.com/2005%2006%2...0Suspension.htm http://www.evolutionmsport.com/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ShelbyPilot Posted May 25, 2007 Report Share Posted May 25, 2007 ....thank you for the reply. I haven't made a decision but that looks like an awful lot of pieces. For my car, I don't want to detract too much from the Shelby of it. I think I could sneek a subtle colored adjustable panhard rod, if needed, but the watts link would be noticible. I am not competing with this car. I may do an open track day here and there for fun. Maybe if a Shelby branded one comes or if I just get a bug later. Thank You, Chris EDIT: I just took a second look and noticed the price. If I was competing, I would do it. I have heard only good things but for my purposes I think it may be too much. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ShelbyPilot Posted May 29, 2007 Report Share Posted May 29, 2007 Ok, I think I decided to go with an adjustable panhard rod. It seems relatively inexspensive and easy to do. The watts link seems a bit much for my use. My question, I would like to keep everything in the family but I can't seem to find an adjustable panhard rod in the FRPP catalog. I find it hard to believe they don't make one. Can anybody help? If not, recommendations for an aftermarket company? Also, how about those rear lower control arms? FRPP has the stock GT500s for $99. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
savage1969 Posted May 29, 2007 Author Report Share Posted May 29, 2007 Steeda makes a lot of the performance items FRPP sells anyway. That's about as close of family as I believe you will find. As far as LCA's, about 3 large will get you into some sweet billets with Ford logo engraved. Also, I do not agree with the suggestion of 3/8" offset that Skip said Steeda recommended. I don't believe that can be an accurate setup because, if that's the case, our cars are perfect according to that spec, but they are not tracking square. I believe axle alignment should be 0 offset at a rested, nuetral state (with the driver's weight accounted for in the driver's seat for perfection), but will certainly get specs and post to confirm. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ShelbyPilot Posted May 30, 2007 Report Share Posted May 30, 2007 .....anybody with thoughts on Granatelli. I like that they have lube fittings for the bushings and come in a blue powder coat. I hear some people complain that the Steeda bushings get noisy. Any feed back? http://www.granatellimotorsports.com/05mus.../panhardrod.htm http://www.granatellimotorsports.com/05mus...controlarms.htm Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skip Posted May 30, 2007 Report Share Posted May 30, 2007 .....anybody with thoughts on Granatelli. I like that they have lube fittings for the bushings and come in a blue powder coat. I hear some people complain that the Steeda bushings get noisy. Any feed back? http://www.granatellimotorsports.com/05mus.../panhardrod.htm http://www.granatellimotorsports.com/05mus...controlarms.htm I haven't had any problems with noise. Just make sure all bushings are lubed properly and you should not have any issue's. I did have a issue with my upper 3rd not coming from Steeda with enough grease and had to have it repacked. But all is good now. I haven't used the Granatelli so I can't comment but I do like the Steeda setup. Skip Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
savage1969 Posted May 30, 2007 Author Report Share Posted May 30, 2007 The street version of the Granatelli doesn't appear to be adjustable. If you go that route, you might verify before hand. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ShelbyPilot Posted May 30, 2007 Report Share Posted May 30, 2007 ....it appears to be adjustablt to me. I will make sure though since that is the point. I can't do anything until I get home anyways. I have to look at my rear lower control arms because the rear brake ducting attaches to and I think around the stock control arm. I'll have to make sure it is possible to switch them over before I decide to change the LCAs Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SGT1171 Posted June 4, 2007 Report Share Posted June 4, 2007 So, is alignment really an issue with '07SGT? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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