Cosworth Input?

[70SCJ]

I talked with a "green engine" engineer this weekend at the Detroit airport. He said he had talked to some Cosworth engineers who had worked on some of the GT-500 design. He claimed they claimed the 650 hp with the pulley change was just the beginning of the power potetial of this motor. A few more minor tweaks would raise this to way over 700. The problem was getting the horses to the ground. I know this has been discussed here before, but I hadn't read the Cosworth angle yet so I thought I would throw it in. Anybody have any other info on this?

[chinpono]

I talked with a "green engine" engineer this weekend at the Detroit airport. He said he had talked to some Cosworth engineers who had worked on some of the GT-500 design. He claimed they claimed the 650 hp with the pulley change was just the beginning of the power potetial of this motor. A few more minor tweaks would raise this to way over 700. The problem was getting the horses to the ground. I know this has been discussed here before, but I hadn't read the Cosworth angle yet so I thought I would throw it in. Anybody have any other info on this?

 

 

I saw a test mule put down 711 HP and 621 lbFt. at the rear wheels on a dyna-pack dyno.

 

Torque curve was as flat as a table. Horsepower went from corner to corner.

[shelbang]

I saw a test mule put down 711 HP and 621 lbFt. at the rear wheels on a dyna-pack dyno.

 

Torque curve was as flat as a table. Horsepower went from corner to corner.

 

 

Please elaborate. This is interesting.

[regalt87]

Thats what I told you all a couple weeks ago when every one was up set with the C&D tests. Ford has to warrenty this car they are going to set it up conservatively.. They don't want them comming into the dealerships in baskits. A few mods and this car will be really fast.

[chinpono]

Please elaborate. This is interesting.

 

 

Give me a day or two to find the picture of the dyno chart that I took. I don't think I was supposed to take it to but I knew I'd want to look over it later.

 

The intersting thing was that even with four fans blowing 80 mph winds, it still couldn't get enough air into the radiators. They are so small that they needed massive amounts of air flowing through them, which supposedly happens in normal driving, but on a dyno it was hard to replicate. So at one or two spots in it's peak rpm's it pulled timing, probably catching a little knock, but that showed up in it's peak power, which should have been a little higher.

 

It was at a dyno day that Ford had scheduled with Microsoft and a local tuner shop so that Microsoft could put the data observed from the cars into the design of their new-at-the-time racing game. They had several cars there. The Indigo concept car from years back was there, which required them to pull of the housing of the dyna-packs cause of how inboard the hubs were on the vehicle, and also used custom hub adapters that Ford so kindly ponied up the dough to produce. It put out low 400's at the wheel. They had the cars Mic'ed up so that Microsoft geeks could record all the fury too.

 

Cool cars... but even cooler numbers. That's when I became a believer.

[svttim]

Give me a day or two to find the picture of the dyno chart that I took. I don't think I was supposed to take it to but I knew I'd want to look over it later.

 

The intersting thing was that even with four fans blowing 80 mph winds, it still couldn't get enough air into the radiators. They are so small that they needed massive amounts of air flowing through them, which supposedly happens in normal driving, but on a dyno it was hard to replicate. So at one or two spots in it's peak rpm's it pulled timing, probably catching a little knock, but that showed up in it's peak power, which should have been a little higher.

 

It was at a dyno day that Ford had scheduled with Microsoft and a local tuner shop so that Microsoft could put the data observed from the cars into the design of their new-at-the-time racing game. They had several cars there. The Indigo concept car from years back was there, which required them to pull of the housing of the dyna-packs cause of how inboard the hubs were on the vehicle, and also used custom hub adapters that Ford so kindly ponied up the dough to produce. It put out low 400's at the wheel. They had the cars Mic'ed up so that Microsoft geeks could record all the fury too.

 

Cool cars... but even cooler numbers. That's when I became a believer.

 

 

 

Sweet! Thanks for th info!

[JETSOLVER]

Give me a day or two to find the picture of the dyno chart that I took.

 

Thanks. But you know that this is Sh-t disturbing on a cosmic scale right? The next sound you hear is a bunch of folks getting knotted right up. That might be the first one so please hurry.

[chinpono]

Thanks. But you know that this is Sh-t disturbing on a cosmic scale right? The next sound you hear is a bunch of folks getting knotted right up. That might be the first one so please hurry.

 

 

 

Alright, so I guess I confabulated a little in my head over the past year... "711 HP and 621 lbFt. at the rear wheels on a dyna-pack dyno...Torque curve was as flat as a table. Horsepower went from corner to corner."

 

The real truth is that my mind I added 100(!?!) extra horsepower AND torque over that time.

...talk about mental tuning.

 

Also, torque curve isn't quite what I'd call a table. HP corner to corner reference stands though.

 

I'm kinda bummed I over-estimated it like that.

 

Sorry if I got your hopes up and smashed 'em to bits.

 

[ColdwaterHotrod]

Alright, so I guess I confabulated a little in my head over the past year... "711 HP and 621 lbFt. at the rear wheels on a dyna-pack dyno...Torque curve was as flat as a table. Horsepower went from corner to corner."

 

The real truth is that my mind I added 100(!?!) extra horsepower AND torque over that time.

...talk about mental tuning.

 

Also, torque curve isn't quite what I'd call a table. HP corner to corner reference stands though.

 

NOW THAT's A MOUNTAIN MOTOR !

[Joe G]

Alright, so I guess I confabulated a little in my head over the past year... "711 HP and 621 lbFt. at the rear wheels on a dyna-pack dyno...Torque curve was as flat as a table. Horsepower went from corner to corner."

 

The real truth is that my mind I added 100(!?!) extra horsepower AND torque over that time.

...talk about mental tuning.

 

Also, torque curve isn't quite what I'd call a table. HP corner to corner reference stands though.

 

I'm kinda bummed I over-estimated it like that.

 

Sorry if I got your hopes up and smashed 'em to bits.

 

 

It's ok! The numbers still look real nice. :happy feet:

[JETSOLVER]

It's ok! The numbers still look real nice. :happy feet:

 

+1 Thanks

[chinpono]

It's ok! The numbers still look real nice. :happy feet:

 

 

 

+1 Thanks

 

 

Glad to help and glad to get the facts straight.

 

I appologize if held out for too long... it was on an external hard-drive that I didn't know was turned off.

[rigger]

Looks to me this dyno was on a ford gt not a shelby gt500.

[chinpono]

Looks to me this dyno was on a ford gt not a shelby gt500.

 

 

Okay wait a sec... I never said it was a GT500 cause it wasn't.

Now that I look back, I guess shoulda specified that right away in my first post, huh?

 

I guess for some odd reason my dumb-a$$ didn't clarify that it was a test mule FORDGT that ran with what was supposedly it's final setup and tune... hence the little radiatorS.

 

Here's why I found it relevant to this discussion: The talk going around then (worried and quiet talk) was that with the same heads and the stronger iron block that the GT500 motor is getting, the new Shelby should be able to safely run much more power than what the GT is capable of. I think they were scared about a potential feeding frenzy amongst the Ford food chain.

 

Then I heard a guy say that the GT500 wouldn't get the Manley H-beam rods or any of the other super trick internals from the factory that the GT did. I got the hint that they were attempting to make it so the engine would need to be gone through before you could really see those differences in block strength become appearent in peak power potential.

 

Trying to hide goliath again Ford?

 

The date of the dyno session was Nov. 30th 2004, so I didn't see a single GT500 there... just talk.

 

But the fact that Ford threw a different blower on the GT500 that caps it's top end power while quietly offering a blower upgrade on the side leads me to believe that they are all too aware of the easily accessable power from this motor. I'm under the impression that they just don't want to make it too public yet. Maybe they're wating to see what the enemy brings before they whip out their big-guns.

 

Oh and again, that dyno was done on a stock FORDGT with what they claimed was the Ford factory tune .

 

So the claim of Ford under-quoting their car's power figure still stands.

 

:tequila:

I need a drink but appearently waiting for my07 is making me stupid enough.

[chinpono]

And to think, I was doing so good at not getting all of my GT's mixed up.

 

So, now who wants to kick me in the teeth?

[DVS2XS]

The GT500 engine does not have the much stronger Manley rods used in the Ford GT and 03/04 Cobras. It uses a powdered metal forging like the Lightning and truck 5.4L engines. It is a narrow beam design that is weak near the big end beam's radius.

 

I do not know the limit on these rods, but in the Lightnings, 500 whp started showing problems with the rods breaking. While others safely got away with even more power, the rods were the weak link and rpm was/is the killer.

 

Compared to the aluminum GT block, I would not expect the iron 5.4L block to be much (if any stronger). The Ford GT 5.4L aluminum block is being raced by several teams making well over twice the stock power and torque.

 

I have not seen/read about the Cosworth connection. Cosworth's forte is head design. The GT500/Ford GT head is nearly the same as the 2000 5.4L Cobra R engine but has better coolant routing. It has larger ports and 2mm larger intake valves compared to the 03/04 Cobra/Mach I/ Marauder/Aviator head. I don't know how much input Cosworth had on this design or the design/testing of the engine's internal parts. But it is possible.

[KCMO-GT500]

Over on SVT performance, a poster (Hissman I think) said he was aware of a test mule with a twin screw that put a rod through the block at 20 #. The engine combo is probably very good for another 100-150 hp, but if you intend to get crazy with it, it looks very much like a bottom end upgrade is in order. Makes sense to just consider it to be cheap insurance for your investment.

[chinpono]

Over on SVT performance, a poster (Hissman I think) said he was aware of a test mule with a twin screw that put a rod through the block at 20 #. The engine combo is probably very good for another 100-150 hp, but if you intend to get crazy with it, it looks very much like a bottom end upgrade is in order. Makes sense to just consider it to be cheap insurance for your investment.

 

 

20psi is a big step up from 9. Figuring the obligatory 15hp/psi, that's a 165hp increase before accounting for the fact that it was running a much better designed blower, which should by itself yeild another 25-55hp. Looking at it that way, between 690-720 crank hp destroyed that motor. That doesn't surprise me all that much that it went pop, especially when you consider that it was running a much more efficient blower design which would have alone seriously bumped up the amount of intake CFM's depending on the severity of the upgrade.

 

The only thing I'm having difficulty finding is whether or not the factory crank is strong enough to leave it alone or with just a knife-edge or minor balance, if it even needs it.

 

From what I gathered on that past dyno day, the Ford crew were pretty much hinting that the pistons and rods and bearings and rings should hold back the GT500's motor. Yet the word of that day seemed to be how much more boost the switch to an iron block would allow...? I didn't hear much mention of crankshafts on that day, so that kinda sucks.

 

I still question how much boost/power the factory crank could handle.

However I wouldn't doubt that the iron block has the potential to handle higher stress limits before it flexes compared to that of a similair aluminum block... that's typically standard with street cars running street engines in high boost situations.

 

Maybe the GT500 motor needs only to be pulled and have it's bottom end rebuilt with better parts if people want to make it the 800 crank-horsepower and 650 rwlbFt. daily-driver that I'm sure a lot of owners might be looking forward to.

 

We'll see I guess.

[KCMO-GT500]

I'm actually thinking that since mine will pretty much be a daily driver with limited time at the track and/or strip, I should be cautious about how much hp to add. For most conditions, I figure about 650 hp crank is more than enough on reasonable street tires. I'm hoping intake, tune, SC porting and mild exhaust will get me there. Adding in elimination of TBW and torque management issues, should be more than enough.

 

It is nice to know that if I really get bitten by the "bug" the shelby can get to some fantastic numbers with just some moderate changes (at least if you consider rebuilding the bottom end to be moderate). With the big numbers that are possible, people probably need to start thinking about the weakest links in the rest of the drivetrain; probably the transmission is ok, but need to consider driveshaft and differential.

 

Dang, I can't wait to get my hands on this thing. To hell with the warranty.

[iceman]

I'm actually thinking that since mine will pretty much be a daily driver with limited time at the track and/or strip, I should be cautious about how much hp to add. For most conditions, I figure about 650 hp crank is more than enough on reasonable street tires. I'm hoping intake, tune, SC porting and mild exhaust will get me there. Adding in elimination of TBW and torque management issues, should be more than enough.

 

It is nice to know that if I really get bitten by the "bug" the shelby can get to some fantastic numbers with just some moderate changes (at least if you consider rebuilding the bottom end to be moderate). With the big numbers that are possible, people probably need to start thinking about the weakest links in the rest of the drivetrain; probably the transmission is ok, but need to consider driveshaft and differential.

 

Dang, I can't wait to get my hands on this thing. To hell with the warranty.

 

 

 

2nd that last part "To hell with the warranty"!!! I do believe that the Ford packs coming out will not void the warranty - at least that's what the dealer told me last Saturday.

[KCMO-GT500]

Buy that dealer a case of something cold, and cultivate that relationship. I thought I read on the FRP site that the use of their products would void the warranty. I imagine you're ok unless the dealer you go to throws up a fuss. Although I may use the FRP stuff, the porting and tune will void my warranty. I intend to keep my warranty long enough to ensure that the odds and ends are all ok, and get things through the initial break in and burn in period.